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Primary education

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Original poster

Is school teacher 'cheating' a bit?

42 replies

sickntiredtoo · 26/10/2014 17:53

DD in new class.We had parents evening and teacher showed us current level and target level (always 2 sub levels higher)
.I asked how the current level had been assessed and she said she had administered a test.I asked to see it and when she got it out the test , her score was a sublevel above what the teacher had said her current level is.
This sounds to me like the teacher is making life easy for herself ie DD only has to make 1 sublevel progress, but it looks as though she has made 2.
A similar thing at the end of Y2.DD got 1 mark off fullmarks on the L2 maths test, but then wasn't entered for L3? I asked why she wasn't entered for L3 and the teacher said that she worked slowly through the test (which didn't have a time constraint) so they didn't have time to do the L3 one????
Presumable this would have helped their value added score to keep KS1 attainment levels down?

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Haggisfish · 26/10/2014 17:55

Possibly but sub levels are so spurious it will make no difference to your daughter. I fully expect Dds school to go something similar and it doesn't bother me (and I am a teacher). Dd is making progress and is happy.

Hulababy · 26/10/2014 18:04

You can't make an assessment on just one test esp so early in the year.
A test would have to be a big one to cover everything on the curriculum!

So, not necessarily cheating at all but combining a formal assessment with ongoing class work assessment.

Also depends on which test used - some of the readily available ones are quite generous in their assessments.

Besides - unless your dc is in y6 or y2 NC levels don't exist anymore anyway.

TheEnchantedForest · 26/10/2014 18:35

One test at a sub level above the TA means just about nothing. It should form one very small part of the teacher's assessment of your child's ability.
This is no way means the teacher is 'cheating'!

pantone363 · 26/10/2014 18:38

You asked to see the test...oh lord

KittyandTeal · 26/10/2014 18:49

Don't worry by July you won't have levels reported and she'll be a 1,2 or 3

TeenAndTween · 26/10/2014 18:51

I don't think there is anything wrong in asking to see a maths test per se.

I like to see maths tests on occasion as it gives me an understanding of the complexity of the questions and whether there is any pattern as to what was incorrect. This then helps me help at home.

redskybynight · 26/10/2014 18:58

Levels (which don't officially exist apart from Y2 and Y6 anyway) are based mainly on teacher assessment prior to Y6. Your DD's level is not based solely on 1 test. If she wasn't even entered for the Level 3 test in Y2, that means she wasn't consistently working at L3. Even if she'd scored L3 on the test, she wouldn't have been awarded it without evidence she was working at that level in class.

Likewise for the current test - it is a guide, not an absolute.

odyssey2001 · 26/10/2014 19:47

Teacher judgement (especially dropping a sublevel) is a normal thing when dealing with a test-based assessment. There are many things that will cause a teacher to believe they are not secure at that level.

In regards to the Level 3 SAT paper issue, taking too long on the L2 test would be a very good reason to not put them in for the L3 test as it indicates that they are not secure enough to progress beyond that level.

junkfoodaddict · 26/10/2014 20:26

Teachers DO NOT make assessment judgements based on a test (i.e. the Key Stage One SATs tests and tasks). They are produced to HELP teachers form an overall judgement from classroom based learning as well as the tests.
As for levels; levels are STILL in place until the government bring out the new test arrangements which are in the academic year 2015/16. At the present moment, it has been reported that these will be descriptors - 4 for KS1 and 5 for KS2.
For KS1 they are currently: below national standar, working towards national standards, working at national standard and mastery national standard. KS2 has the same but an extra one above national standard decribed as 'above national standard' before becoming mastery standard. of course these are just draft and could change in the coming months.

odyssey2001 · 26/10/2014 20:57

Just to go off on a tangent, where did you read about the draft level divisions? Do you by any chance have a link to the source? Thanks.

TeenAndTween · 26/10/2014 21:01

So if my child is 'below national standard' how will I know if they are 1 year below, or 2 years???

I like NC Levels, for all their faults it does add some clarity for the parents.

Original poster

sickntiredtoo · 26/10/2014 22:19

'Teachers DO NOT make assessment judgements based on a test '
So how else could they get a baseline assessment of the new children coming into the class in September and (2) why did she say she had assessed them on the basis of the test

OP posts:

mrz · 27/10/2014 04:41

Teachers should receive information from a previous school and they will use this alongside their own day to assessment of a new child's educational needs.
Tests are usually summative at the end of period of study to check that the child understand but the majority of assessment is through day to day interactions. Teachers are continually assessing their pupils (many times each day) in order to plan what they need to learn next.

mrz · 27/10/2014 04:41

Hulababy · 27/10/2014 07:10

Junkfoodaddict - other than for y2 and y6 not all schools are using NC levels at all. They do not match with the new National curriculum and are no longer ideal for assessing children using the new curriculum. In Sheffield we have a new system decided by the authority called STAT. Most schools in the authority are using it and other schools in other authorities are too.
It's incorrect IMO to state that NC levels still exist for all years.

claraschu · 27/10/2014 07:21

I don't think a test can tell you if your daughter is learning, enjoying school, and generally switched on.

The teacher might be lazy, complacent and ignorant or she might be inspiring, exciting, and not obsessed with testing.

Parents' obsession with testing seems pathetic and sad. Standardised tests are a tool used by large institutions which lack finesse and subtlety.

FlowersForAlgernon · 27/10/2014 08:02

The teacher may well have cheated. There is a lot of incentive for them to do so. Her performance related pay may be based on getting all pupils to make 2 sub levels progress. She will certainly have to explain pupils who don't.

It is impossible to know.

But there is nothing you can do about it. You certainly can't question the teacher.

WhereTheWildlingsAre · 27/10/2014 08:04

'Cheating'??!

My word, you lack of trust in the professional assessment of the teacher is frightening!

FlowersForAlgernon · 27/10/2014 08:10

Are you claiming that 100% of teachers can be trusted 100%?

Because I'm very happy to say I don't trust 100% of teachers 100%. Or 100% of any other profession.

Of course levels are manipulated, in various ways, on occasion. How often it happens depends on the school culture your child happens to go to.

Teachers have frequently blatantly lied to me about my DC levels. But only at one school.

FlowersForAlgernon · 27/10/2014 08:12

Do you know what happens if teachers consistently lie to you from R to Y6? Absolutely nothing.

Do you not read the secondary boards? Secondary schools know that kids from X school's level will be inflated. And then they're placed under immense pressure to get those children to make 2 sub levels from an inflated level. Or an A in GCSEs from an inflated Y6 SAT score.

WhereTheWildlingsAre · 27/10/2014 08:15

Wow! I was talking to the op, really. But that is a staggering reply.

GratefulHead · 27/10/2014 08:16

I can see the teacher love is alive and well this fine Monday morning,

OP, a teacher cannot assess a level on ONE test...and you'd be the first one yelling if she did. Lots has to be taken into account....all the teacher really failed at here is explaining herself....not difficult when she likely has 30+ other children all at varying levels to consider as well.

If your child was Level (make up your own) and felt unwell on the day of a test the presumably you wouldn't want to accept the result.

Your DD sounds like she is doing really well. She did well too at the end of last year but the teacher observed she worked slowly through the test. I call that "good ibsrvation". As such she didn't want to stress your DD out by knocking her confidence with a higher level at that point.

GratefulHead · 27/10/2014 08:22

Look at the system if you really think teachers are setting out to "cheat". Why are they in this position?
Performance related pay?
Statistics?
Govt pressure which says all children must achieve X by (insert whatever age)?

Working in a classroom though I can only say that teachers seem overworked and pressured in trying to ensure every child achieves progress under their care. Thankless bloody job, I wouldn't want it.

ellaballoo · 27/10/2014 08:34

If she got a 2a in Year 2 then she will probably be expected to get a 5 in year 6 and I am sure you will exert so much pressure on her that she will get it. She will then be predicted an A, or whatever the highest new grade will be at GCSE.

You obviously have no faith in the ability of the teacher or the school. Get her out of there before it's too late, but please don't bring her to my school.

Pipbin · 27/10/2014 08:41

How is it 'cheating'?

Ask yourself if she likes the class and she is learning.
Levels are meaningless. No one is going to ask her on her entrance exam for uni what level she got in her first term of year 3.

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