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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Would you choose an under performing primary....

38 replies

CooCooCachoo · 13/10/2014 23:39

...but where class sizes are really small?

We have a choice of 3 primaries, fairly central to all 3 and have been told we stand a pretty good chance of getting in to any we choose.

2 of the schools are categorised by Ofsted as good with a couple of outstanding features BUT class sizes for reception this year was 30.

The third school requires improvement across the board but has really small class sizes, the yr2 class having only 13 pupils (96 on the role for the whole school this year). They are also gearing up to do a lot of forest school activities and other more 'holistic' activities than the other 2 schools seem to offer.

All 3 schools seem to have same spread of TA's, we saw at least 1, sometimes 2 in the classroom but only the third smaller school had a couple of part time teachers with classes doubling up for afternoons I.e yrs 2 and 3 and 5 and 6 joining up.

The acting headmistress of the smaller school said that the school has previously had a disruptive elements (children in yr6) that have now moved on and a previously high turnover of staff that she is hoping is now resolved and as hopes of a better report next time.

I want to choose the 3rd school but see it very much as a school potentially on the road to recovery and the risky option. I'd appreciate any thoughts/input to help DH and I decide.

TIA

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ElliotLovesGrub · 13/10/2014 23:52

I'd be tempted by the smaller class sizes and the forest school activities. But then I'd be put off by the combining of classes in the afternoons and the part time teachers. Plus the disruptive elements moving on (i.e. blaming the children rather than the staff's ability to handle the disruption) would be a no for me too.

In your situation I'd be going with one of the bigger schools.

NetballHoop · 13/10/2014 23:59

Small class sizes sound great, but it also means a smaller pool of children to make friends with.

We moved our DCs from a small school to a much bigger one and I'm really glad we did.

CharlesRyder · 14/10/2014 06:59

Remember RI is the old satisfactory so it's not like they've sunk without trace into a category.

The 'acting' Head though? Have they got plans to get a permanent Head? It will be the quality of that person who will determine the path/ recovery of the school. Do you have enough time on your hands to wait and see who that person turns out to be?

tobysmum77 · 14/10/2014 07:09

seriously take no notice of ofsted. dd's school was good with outstanding features when she started. It was then put into sm. Go with what you think overall not a dusty goverent document.

tobysmum77 · 14/10/2014 07:10

'sunk without trace into a category'

CharlesRyder · 14/10/2014 07:13

Why does that make you angry?

tobysmum77 · 14/10/2014 07:36

because it's attitudes like that which make it really damaging for schools which go into category. Potentially it can happen to any school. dd's school is a good one, with good teachers that just needed a new ht. yet people see sm and immediately think 'crap school'. Sorry didn't mean to hijack op.

With the ri school I would be worried about the lack of stability in relation to the ht. Tbh it sounds at risk of category to me and you don't want to be there at the time it hits the fan. Often its better if they are in sm and it's on the way up as we are now thankfully.

CharlesRyder · 14/10/2014 08:01

Yes, any school could go unexpectedly into a category- because their central record wasn't right or because of a glaring policy error etc. This would not be a reflection on the teaching or how good the school actually was. However, a school that makes this sort of mistake will be able to turn themselves around quickly and by the first interim visit will be clearly on the path out.

By 'sunk without trace' I mean a school that has been in and out of SM for a while, or where the interim visits are showing no improvement over time.

A school having those kinds of difficulties can be a very difficult place to work, crawling with authority 'help' (which can actually be very demoralising), staff jumping ship, staff going off sick due to the pressure, forced academisation which can be an unknown quantity and may or may not involve replacing the Head/ SMT and associated turmoil. I do not think I would choose a school in this situation for my child.

AmazonGrace · 14/10/2014 08:07

I have done. Ds spent from Reception to Y2 in a school which went from Satisfactory to Good. It was a small school, teachers were fantastic but still, we moved him to a much bigger primary.

Our reasons were that problems between children can seem magnified in a smaller school, there can be friendship issues. Extra curricular activities were cancelled due to lack of interest, hardly any other kids in after school club etc

Cric · 14/10/2014 08:11

I think it sounds like your heart is in the small school and so that is where you should go. Don't worry about what ofsted says. What matters is how you felt when you walked around the school.

Original poster

CooCooCachoo · 14/10/2014 09:21

That is all really useful. How do I find out if the school is already in sm? I didn't see this on the Ofsted reports.

The acting head was brought in in May of this year by the LA. Is that indicative of sm? She seems really enthusiastic and did say on the down low that she was hoping , and expected, to be retained but old HT is still in place 'officially' although not in person, until that decision is made.

The acting HT did say that there is a further inspection in November. So provided the report is made public in time, I may have more info before having to make a choice.

What would sm entail?

All responses really helpful BTW, thanks very much!

OP posts:

junkfoodaddict · 14/10/2014 09:50

I am a teacher (currently on sick leave!) and my child's local school went from Outstanding to Serious Weaknesses in three years. OFSTED criteria and grades mean absolutely nothing to me as a professional and as a parent. In the years OFSTED have been inspecting, they have NEVER got it 'right' themselves in terms of what is a 'good' school. Goalposts and expectations are constantly changing so an 'outstanding' school last year may not be deemed so if inspected under this year's criteria. Ignore OFSTED altogether and make your own judgements. It would be difficult to find the 'perfect' school as it is to find the 'perfect' house. But you need to weigh up the pros and cons of all three and consider which school would allow your child to flourish and meet their full potential. Personally for me, it would be a school which centres education on the child's needs and not on what the government want. I.e a school that educates beyond the curriculum so a forest school would suit my little boy perfectly as it compliments his character and personality (outdoor boy). I hVe many friends who gave pulled their child from a target intense outstanding school to an RI and one to special measures because the schools put child welfare above government targets. That isn't to say they didn't work towards them, but more they didn't have tArgets flashed in their faces 6 hours a day on walls and in books!

Original poster

CooCooCachoo · 14/10/2014 12:05

Just a thought on what charlessays above, the first interim report does not show any improvement, but it was only a month after the acting head took over so perhaps not fair to judge on that basis....

OP posts:

CharlesRyder · 14/10/2014 12:27

What are the reasons given that the school is 'not yet good'?

Hexu2 · 14/10/2014 12:31

Small class sizes sound great, but it also means a smaller pool of children to make friends with.

^^This and there being less before and after school activity groups so less opportunity to try things.

Having said that my DC school is huge but has a really friendly atmosphere and parents with DC already there sang it's praises and the teaching staff including the head seem to know all the DC - and that all mattered more than ofsted rating though even they picked up the DC enthusiasm to go to school.

I worried about the class size being 30 and the year 60 - but the DC settled really well. In fact eldest was in a very small nursery with very small group and she really struggled but settled much better in her reception class of 30 - I think it was easier to find friends.

Doodledot · 14/10/2014 12:53

I wouldn't but I am not a fan of small schools. We love our fabulous 3 firm entry school and all the advantages it brings

AmazonGrace · 14/10/2014 12:56

Hexu2, I couldn't agree more with regards to the friendship issues, there is more chance of there being other children similar to yours, similar interests.

Ds seems happier, their intake is 45 per school year and yet we walked past the head the other day, she smiled and knew him by name. The atmosphere is totally different. I can't fault the teachers at his old school though, that was the hardest thing to deal with when we left but onwards and upwards.

Hakluyt · 14/10/2014 12:59

How would a difficult year group affect the quality of teaching and leadership across the board?

Is it a small school because it's small, or because it's undersubscribed?

I think I would want to see it sorting out it's current issues before branching out into new initiatives, to be honest.

CaulkheadUpNorth · 14/10/2014 13:01

In the area I work in there is a similar mix of schools. In my experience, the smaller school with lower ofsted grading has more support. So I go in regularly, as do other organisations. At least in this area the larger, better schools are happier to get on with things themselves which sometimes gives children less opportunities to experience different things.

Hexu2 · 14/10/2014 13:13

At least in this area the larger, better schools are happier to get on with things themselves which sometimes gives children less opportunities to experience different things

Is that areas or school dependent?

My DC school is very good at bringing in outside groups and adults with particular skills in - though they aren't failing they did slip into unsatisfactory for 12 ish months after one inspection then went back to good with outstanding features.

I thought part of the reason for this was they have a bigger pot of money as more pupils - so it's easier to allocate a bit for things like that for a smaller budget would be a bigger %. Though they are not shy about calling on local links they have either.

Possibly something the Op should ask all the schools more questions about?

Original poster

CooCooCachoo · 14/10/2014 14:13

Charles why it was not yet good didn't really come up. There was a lot about what improvements have been made though. Whether they have had an effect or not may yet to be seen in the next interim? I wish I knew more/any of the parents that do take their kids there so I could ask some questions but we are also new to the area.

hakluyt in retrospect it did seem odd to blame a particular year group for poor performance. The Acting HT said they have more parents taking an interest now but did seem to suggest their demographic was against them...she referred to more middle class families moving to the area and sending their kids there. That also struck a bit of a dud note because I wouldn't put us in that category!

It s a small school though, so not sure if undersubscribed. One older person I have met at the local library raves about it, she s a retired teacher and was the reason we went to view in the first place. I think she would agree with those posters who have suggested not putting to much onus on Ofsted.

Thanks hexu2, I think we might go to the next round of open days at the end of this month. I feel armed with better questions now.

I'm really grateful for thoughts.

OP posts:

CharlesRyder · 14/10/2014 14:23

On the Ofsted report in which it is first given RI there will be a section near the top that says 'The school is not yet good because...' and outline the weaknesses.

What does it say there? It might be things you are not too worried about yet. For example if they are not extending the most able creative writers enough they have years to sort that out before it will worry you and appointing an amazing English leader could sort it out really quickly. On the other hand if the teaching requires improvement across the board that is probably quite an ingrained problem that will take time to sort out and effect you straight away.

CharlesRyder · 14/10/2014 14:24

BTW if the interim report was written in positive terms that is good news. I have seen some really damning ones. They seems to be quite 'no holds barred' on interim reports.

Original poster

CooCooCachoo · 14/10/2014 17:46

Gosh... Looking through the whole ofsted history (from2004), it seems that the shool has always been RI, so I'm struggling to see why they are not yet good! It doesn't seem to be on any of they reports although will have a closer look later tonight when kids in bed.

The last report does seem positive and quite supportive of efforts made though.

OP posts:

sneepy · 14/10/2014 19:05

The acting headmistress of the smaller school said that the school has previously had a disruptive elements (children in yr6) that have now moved on

I'd be wary of any school in which the head blamed the school's problems on the pupils.

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