Setting stigma

[shebird]

I overheard a discussion between DDs friends today about what levels and what tables they are on at school. There were some boastful comments like 'I'm level x and I'm in top group for everything' and then some awful put downs to some of the group 'oh you're in bottom group that means you're rubbish'. These are 7 year olds already labelling themselves as top dogs or bottom of the heap. Is it me or is there something very wrong here.

I would have a word with the teacher.
Sure they could make life confusing for the boasters!

Despite not having ability tables, the children in my class could order each other from top to bottom in each subject and be pretty much accurate! They know-without levels or anything else, who is "brighter" than others. What is unacceptable is the derogatory comments made towards the less able and the teacher should have a discussion about this!

If I hear that kind of talk, I say
"different people are good at different things"
and/or "some people take a bit more time to learn things but everyone will get there in the end"
occasionally coupled with "well I know XXX is very good at "
wanting to add "and is obviously better at being kind than you are"

I am like TeenandTween if I hear comments like this. My children wouldn't be nasty about other children generally, it isn't the way they are but they have innocently said other people aren't very clever or something like that so I have said that some people find some things harder and that as they get older things change etc etc etc.

and I agree that any switched on child can order the vast majority of children in the class whether there are any sets or not. That in itself isn't the problem it is the comments that are the problem.

Our school mixes the tables around for different subjects, but the dc all know who's where in reading, spelling and maths, and who's on what level.

But I completely agree that although it's nice to be clever, it's clever to be nice, and I would come down hard on any nastiness and boasting re being top of the class.

everybody is good at something, be it dancing, stock car racing, maths or running
setting is as it is
snide comments need to be stamped on

I think it happens because they have 7 year old social skills and sensibilities, not adult ones. It needs correctly, absolutely, but infant school children haven't always perfected being kind and sensitive to others. So I think it's common, not indicative of something very wrong.

I tend to say that everyone has some things that come easily to them and other things that they have to work harder. For example, boastful child, maths may come easily to you but being considerate of other people's feelings (or a less pointed example!) comes more easily to . Everyone has things they need to work hard at.

I think this applies to most things in life, not just sets but keeping pants dry, misbehaviour, anything. And it moves the focus from 'clever' as some sort of personal attribute.

Unfortunately the incident was not at school so it is not something I can specifically report to a teacher. Even if I were to mention this I do not think it is something teachers can really control because these young kids are just stating fact as this is how they see things.'I am top and you are bottom' translates as I am better than you. I realise that even without sets children are well able to tell who is better at particular subjects but there seems to be so much more emphasis today on engraining this label of Middle or bottom on such young kids they seem almost doomed from the start.

I think you can mention it to the school, as maybe the teacher needs to do more to emphasise empathising, not being boastful, etc.

It can be really damaging.

DD2's self confidence is quite low at school, partly due to these sorts of comments.

I really don't think it is pushed on the children. I think it happens despite teachers' attempts to prevent it. Juvenile chimps tussle for their rank in the group too.

It sounds a bit weird to me. It's a long time since I was at school, but although we all knew how to interpret the table allocations nobody would have dreamed of saying anything like that. It was a perfectly ordinary school, and I don't believe that many of us were more sensitive than the norm.

Did you overhear one or two insensitive children making the remarks there will always be one or two who enjoy upsetting the others or did you get the impression that they were all joining in? If the latter then I'm rather surprised.

OP
you can and should mention it to the teacher
its part of the PSHE curriculum for them to cover the differences between people and teach tolerance and acceptance of difference

once raised, then you leave them to it
but there are loads of teacher resources about how to deal with such stuff

in these days of league tables and parental choice I am not at all surprised to hear about it, in a bog standard community primary or a naice fee paying prep

Puss It is indeed very weird to hear young children having this sort of conversation. It is actually quite sad because this is now what defines them. When we were kids it was who could run fastest, score more goals or win all the skipping games but now it's what level you are working at and whether you are in the top set for maths. These conversations happen more than you think.

is it really any different to who can run the fastest, score more goals etc though?

No, I don't think so, nonickname - just the same, and they also argue about who scores most goals, runs fastest, eats fastest at lunch, gets moved up the ladder (bad) most...

I am strongly against setting. I didn't go to school in the uk so the whole concept is alien to me.

My dd is always talking about it. The children are not nasty about it but it's very much "so and so is clever but x isn't" etc. This is 7 and 8 year olds.

sadly its not just confined to the children. Some of the parents are obsessed with what set everyone is in and grill the children for info. Recently a very good friend of mine (or so I thought) was mortified because her 'very clever' daughter was in a ridiculously easy group with people who aren't anywhere near as bright ( ie my daughter!). Its very hard to change the way chidlren talk and think when they have parents like that. I have one child who is in the top sets and one in the middle to lower and neither of mine have ever made any comments to me about groups or sets .I suspect its a large part parent driven sadly

I think this sort of thing is exacerbated by the NC levels, and is one of the reasons why I'm glad they're going. I know kids will always be aware of where they stand academically, but I think being able to say 'I'm a Level 3 and you're only a Level 2', or whatever, makes the whole thing much more blatant.

I agree with the others that I'd mention it to the teacher, even if the conversation you heard didn't take place at school. Not as a complaint, but just so that she can address it if she wants to.

I have decided that I will mention it to the teacher so she can have a chat to the class about it. I probably shouldn't be so surprised that this goes on bearing in mind that levels and statistics are all we hear about in relation to schools these days.
I disagree that kids talking about who's best at football etc. is the same as whos the top and bottom academically.
How demoralising it must be at such a young age to have this label. I doubt the same level of stigma is attached to being slow at running as it would be if it was pointed out repeatedly that you were in bottom group for maths.

I don't know shebird - when I was at school those who were rubbish at sport were left out in PE lessons which rubbed it in nicely, if they couldn't catch or throw the ball then every PE lesson that was obvious and they tended to be laughed at, if they were slow with running or had to keep stopping etc then PE teachers were allowed to be, well not rude but very blunt about it yet a maths teacher wouldn't be allowed to speak to a child in class in the same way, the ones who couldn't swim had to go in the 'baby' end and have floats and so on. To the children who aren't very good at whatever it is then it is very obvious and very confidence sapping and it is reinforced more than once a week whatever it is. sports also comes out in the playground too - if you can't run around or kick the ball and the others are playing football at break and don't want to play with you because you aren't very good for example. I don't tend to see children discussing algebra in the playground.

It's exactly the same as the football comparison! And equally horrid.