Year 3 Times Tables

[ThoughtsPlease]

Is anyone able to offer some views in this, parents or teachers, or others of course.

DD1 is now in Year 4, last year she had weekly times tables tests, ending the year being competent in all of them. Her weekly tests by then were timed with 30 questions, a combination of multiplication and division across all the tables. This system seemed to work well for her, and her weekly tests now are again a range of multiplication and division, but also larger numbers, e.g. 7x200, and word problems. So far she has got 10/10. The system of learning the times tables inside out first last year seems to have worked for her.

It is a mixed Year 3/4 class and DD2 has now joined the class in Year 3. In Year 2 they only did 2, 5, 10. Now they seem to be doing the same style of tests as DD1 in Year 4. Involving multiplication, division larger numbers and word problems. Last week they did 4s and 6s. This week 5s and 7s. In her test this week on 4s and 6s, she got 7/10. She said she was confused by the ones that were not straightforward. She is not yet secure in instant recall. My belief is that she needs to be more secure with more instant recall type tests, before attempting to mix up the questions in this way, as I can see that it is confusing.

She ended Key Stage 1 with a Level 3 in Maths so she is capable enough.

They have a new teacher and I understand that there have been some curriculum changes this year.

My instinct was to speak to the school about this but first I would like hear if I am missing something in my thinking.

Any thoughts must welcome, thanks.

Anyone? Any teachers around?

Could do with some thoughts as soon as possible, thanks.

Teacher here. If it were my class I'd hpoe you'd come in and voice concerns early. I'd say they need to differentiate the tests for Y3 and 4 especially this early on. Maybe just let her know that your DD has only done 2,5 and 10's till now, although if she was a level 3 I would have expected her to know her 3's and 4's too.

Thanks, yes I will go and talk to her.

Sorry if I wasn't clear but the tests are differentiated for Y3 and Y4, Y3 did 4&6s, Y4 6&7s. Only 3 of the 9 children in Y3 achieved a level 3, 4 only a level 1, but they all seem to be doing the same test. I think she learnt to count in 3s and 4s, but not 8x4 etc.

Do you think learning and testing on 8x4 etc should be done first and be more secure before extending it to larger numbers, division and word problems? Or is it now considered more effective to learn it by mixing it up in this way? Should she be moving on to do 7s this week when she isn't secure with 4s and 6s?

Anyone else around today? Thanks

I'm not a teacher but my understanding is that under the new curriculum the expected knowledge of times tables has been expanded and also pushed down. So children now need to know upto their 12 times tables, not 10. Also some of the tables they needed to know in Y3 under the old curriculum have now been pushed down to Y2 etc.

So this may explain why the tests in Y3 seem more challenging. However, I don't understand why some schools seem to expect children to learn times tables by osmosis or something similar At DS's school they didn't seem to be taught their tables in lessons but were regularly tested in Y3 and the tests have started up again in Y5. I think they just assume parents will teach them at home. Which is all very well if the parents know their tables and if you know which tables they need to learn. It must be very demoralising for children if they constantly fail their times table tests due to lack of parental help.

I know DS's school changed the way they tested the tables in Y3 last year. When DS was in Y3 they had weekly tests of 50 questions which they had about 20 minutes to complete, and children could use counters if they needed help. If they got a certain % right they then moved on to a harder test the following week. But if they didn't they had to continue taking the same test until they got the required mark. Last year they had the same tests but changed the timing from 20 minutes to 5 Still didn't teach the tables in class so funnily enough most of the children kept failing.

Ok thanks, that is what I needed to know about the curriculum changes.

I still feel though that a better result can be achieved by first learning the times tables, and then expanding the tests to include more challenging testing of the tables say after Christmas.

My Y4 daughter learnt very successfully this way last year, and now completes the Y4 tests perfectly. She was at the same level as my Y3 daughter this time last year and would not have done any better than my Y3 DD is doing now. And I know that my Y3 DD is one of a few at the top of the Y3.

So I still wonder whether the more challenging goal can still be achieved by learning the tables first rather than trying to make it more complicated right from the start.

What you describe does seem a bit tough for the first few weeks of term. Particularly the idea that they should be attempting bigger numbers before they have nailed the basics. DD's school places huge emphasis on "having a go" and "it's okay to make mistakes as long as you tried", but they definitely make sure the children get the basics right. It's a bit like having decent foundations for a brick house. I would definitely talk to the teacher.

It sounds as if your DD is very disappointed that she is making a few mistakes but it is worth helping her realise that she can't always get gold stars and 100%s.

BTW DD is also new yr3. With maths there is greater emphasis on speed (i.e. they are trying to know answers to addition and subtractions up to 20 and multiplications/divisions of 2/5/10 tables within 3 seconds - hope that makes sense). They will be expected to know their 4x table equally well by the end of this term and have been doing sums like 42x3.

Thanks Madcats, I completely agree with your thinking on the basics first.

DD1 who is Y4 now, last year, did 30 question tests in 4 minutes for emphasis on speed as you say. Once they were secure in one set they moved on to the next, this seemed to work very well, and she has no problem with this year's new style of tests.

I spoke to the new teacher today, who said that she had used this method successfully before, and that they did chant the tables in class. She said that even though children weren't secure with instant recall in e.g 4s they would work through each week 2 sets of tables and then come back to the start and do it again. I found that an odd approach and frankly confusing. She said she would speak to the Maths Co-ordinator regarding my concerns.

I'm a Y4 teacher. As others have already said the expectations have changed with the new curriculum. To make expected progress at Y4 children are expected to know all of their multiplication facts to 12 x 12 off by heart and out of order and by the end of Y3 they should know 2x, 5x, 10x, 3x, 4x and 8x!

However the tests you describe aren't something I'd be doing with my own class! Although important to be dealing with larger numbers and problems I'd be focusing on them learning one set of multiplication facts at a time and then working at applying it

Hi Thoughtsplease:

Have just scanned the conversation but heartily agree with ineedaholidaynow - schools are now required to have pupils know times tables to x12 by end Y4 (earlier & more tables than previously) & many schools presume parents will break down and help with this at some point.

What you can do.

Learning 2/5/10 - is classic start - but double check she also understands x1 (anything x 1 is itself) and x0 (anything x 0 = 0).

With x2 - see if she understands the principle of doubling - because that will help with other times tables (x4 [double x2]/ x6 [double x3]/ x8 [double x4 or double x2 and double again]/ x12 [double x 6 or double x3 and double again])

x3 has to be learned - playing counting by 3 games or playing snakes and ladders but as multiples of 3s (so get two dice - so you can work to 3 x 12) and then move your piece that many multiples of 3. (Also with x3 your hand can be a calculator - Thumbs are tricky because you only have 2 creases so we also count the tip of thumbs, but there are 3 creases on each finger - so in fact you can count up creases (and thumb tips) to work out something like 3 x 3 (thumb: crease/ crease/ tip = 3 + finger (3 creases) = 6 + 3 more creases of next finger = 9).

Once you've got x3 you have virtually cracked it (honest) because you can get away with a lot by simply doubling.

x4 - use answer from x2 table but double it (so 8 x 4 is the same as 8 x 2 = 16 and double that = 32).

x6 - use answer from x 3 table but double it (so 8 x 6 is the same thing as 8 x 3 = 24 and double that = 48).

x8 - up to you if you know your x4 table well - just double it or go back to x2 but this time double it and double it again. so 8 x 8 is the same thing as 8 x 4 = 32 and double that = 64 ---- or 8 x 8 is the same thing as 8 x 2 = 16 and double that = 32 and double again = 64).

x 12 - again up to you - if you know your x 6 table well - just double it or you can go back to x3 and double and double again. So 8 x 12 is the same thing as 8 x 6 = 48 and double that = 96 or 8 x 12 is the same thing as 8 x 3 = 24 and double that = 48 and double that = 96. Alternatively you can think of x12 as the adding the result of x10 and x2 with that multiple - so 8 x 12 is the same thing as (8 x 10 = 80) + (8 x 2 = 16) and 80 + 16 = 96.

so at that point your DC knows: x0, x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, x6, x8, x10 and x12

that leaves x7, x9 and x11. x7 is horrid - so we'll leave that for last - but x9 and x11 are full of fun patterns (therefore once you know the trick they're easy to learn).

x9 - hand method for up to 9 x 10: There's a video with a catchy song which shows you this method

The other trick is to realise that with the 9 times table to x10 there is a pattern:

1 x 9 = 09
2 x 9 = 18
3 x 9 = 27
4 x 9 = 36
5 x 9 = 45
6 x 9 = 54
7 x 9 = 63
8 x 9 = 72
9 x 9 = 81
10 x 9 = 90

This first digit is always 1 less than the multiple
The two digits add to 9 - so the second digit is always whatever number you would have to add to the first digit to make 9.

so 8 x 9 - first digit has to be 7 so second digit is whatever number + 7 = 9 and that has to be 2 - so 8 x 9 = 72.

The other pattern with the 9s times tables (whatever multiple - even 9378 x 9) is that the digits in the answer always will reduce to 9 if added together:

9 x 9 = 81 and 8 + 1 = 9.

155 x 9 = 1395 and 1 + 3 + 9 + 5 = 18 and 1 + 8 = 9

(by the way similar trick to knowing if something is a multiple of 3 - if the number can be evenly divided by 3 it's a multiple of 3. So 1212 is a multiple of 3 because 3 can go into 1212 exactly 404 times. however that requires understanding division first and that's a ways off yet).

with 9 x 11 or 9 x 12 you can either count up

9 x 10 = 90 and 9 more is 99 for 9 x 11

or use the times table (because in fact you know 9 x 12 from your 12 times table - 12 x 9 = 9 x 12).

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x 11 is also a lovely pattern times table

like times 1 - you know up to x9 the multiple of 11 is just written down 2 times.

1 x 11 = 11
2 x 11 = 22
3 x 11 = 33
...
8 x 11 = 88
9 x 11 = 99

10 x 11 you should know anyway - is 110

at this point you may want to introduce what multiplying a number by 10 does - that everything moves over a column (jumps one column to left)

999 x 10 = moves 9 hundreds to 9 thousands
moves 9 tens to 9 hundreds
moves 9 units to 9 tens
and you put the 0 in the units place

999 x10 = 9990

(You can also teach what happens with x100 and x1000).

This is very old fashioned by way back in the day my teacher taught us to just count the zeros and add them on the end.

so 10,000 x 879 would be 879 + 4 zeros or 8790000 = 8,790,000

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anyway back to x11 and the trick with 2 digit numbers x 11

Take the first and second number and separate them and then put the two numbers together in the middle and that's your answer.

So with 14 x 11 - you get 1 - (1 + 4) - 4 = 154

it's a little tricky if you have to carry but it still works

38 x 11 = 3 - (3 + 8) - 8 = 3 - (11) - 8

you'll have to carry the 10 from the middle 11

so that gives you (3+1) - 1 - 8 = 418.

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So that's all your times tables x0 - x6 and x8 - x12 except x 7

In fact you know times all the x7 table except 7 x 7 from knowing these other tables. I'm afraid there is no trick to knowing 7 x 7 = 49 except to know that 7 x 7 is a swine and that rhymes with 49.

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things you can do at home to help:

Great free websites:

Woodlands Junior Maths Zone - timestables: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/timestable/ - lots of links to great games to help you practice.

Multiplication dot com: www.multiplication.com - again lots of games for practice.

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If you want to build up speed - there is a free version of a game called Timez Attack which casts your child as a young ogre working there way through a castle or dungeon solving multiplication problems (both as multiple additions and as traditional vertical problems). The game keeps track of what you get wrong and what you consistently struggle with and gives you the tricky ones again (so no faking it). You're tested by varying degrees of scary ogre. It did make DD2 shreek - but both DDs really got quick with their times table recalls and never viewed playing the game as practice. Link & info here: www.bigbrainz.com/.

There are more expensive versions with more platforms but we found the free version was enough.

Timez Attack also now has a division version of the game (so inverse multiplication facts - i.e. 36 divided by 9 is ? type questions). - which is the next step once tables are mastered.

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Old fashioned games:

As suggested above - use snakes and ladders to practice times tables - roll of dice (use 2 for up to x12) and just practice a specific table. We did find you had to play the board more than once for numbers >5.

As a family we play multiplication snap - so we would chose a times table to practice (maybe x 4) and use an ordinary deck of cards (Ace = 1/ 2 - 9 as numbered/ Jack = 10/ Queen = 11/ King = 12). Shuffle deck and place it face down. (I'd use a post it to write the times table down - in this case x4 - just as a reminder). Flip the card and the first to answer correctly gets to keep it. At first we were fairly gentle, but as they got better we really went for it. I fear we rather embarrassed ourselves by being too voluble in a restaurant when playing this waiting for our dinners - so I'd advise just playing this at home.

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Times tables are a real hurdle that has to be cleared before progressing in maths. So much is dependent on it. But if you can do one thing in primary to give your child a headstart in secondary - ensuring they soundly know their times tables is it. So much of maths/ sciences at GCSE level depends on this core calculation skill: www.greatmathsteachingideas.com/2014/01/05/youve-never-seen-the-gcse-maths-curriculum-like-this-before/

HTH

Past - many thanks for your advice, but as an educated to degree level adult with an A in Maths A Level, I am perfectly able to teach my children times tables and extensions effectively. As I said DD1 in Y4 now, learnt all times tables inside out last year. DD2 now in Y3 is begin taught in a different way, that is my question, why is this and is it effective?

Wombat, thanks for that, it seems that your approach would be similar to the teacher last year, which I believe worked rather than this year's approach. Thanks

Past that is great, loads of info. I will put it in to practice with my dc.

Hi Thoughts:

Thought I was trying to answer your questions as you said:

Last week they did 4s and 6s. This week 5s and 7s. In her test this week on 4s and 6s, she got 7/10. She said she was confused by the ones that were not straightforward. regarding your DD2 - which scanned to me as she must not be secure on some times tables.

but there you go.

The only thing I can think of is that your DD2 is struggling to interpret word problems where she needs to apply her times table facts (i.e. she can get 4 x 8 = 32 but if she had a word problem - The bus can seat 32 children. If 8 children get on at the first stop and 2 times that get on at the second stop - how many children get on in total).

Why they're changing it - the new national curriculum is stressing that children need to be able to apply maths skills (see new programme for study in maths here: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/335158/PRIMARY_national_curriculum_-_Mathematics_220714.pdf - just read through what is now required for each year.

I actually said 'she is not secure in instant recall' so there was no need for you be making assumptions as you imply. I stated that as fact.

I have no problem with the change in curriculum, or in helping her learn her tables, I was confused about the method of teaching and the format of the tests.

I have since spoken to the Head teacher, who said they welcome such feedback, and they have agreed that they will revert back to a traditional times tables test to work on instant recall, alongside the mental agility test using the extensions for times tables, larger numbers, word problems etc.

My point was that if you are not secure in the times tables, even if you understand the word problems you will struggle if you don't know the relevant times table. The Head agreed with this.

So there you go......it seems that you have struggled to interpret or actually just read my posts, and got a little trigger happy with all your 'help'

I've just read that website.
Gosh it is exactly what I thought.
But it is not what is being taught in 'my' primary school.
We follow 'problem solving' scheme of work and they can't do it...they don't have basic understanding.
We are not given any support, resources, time to 'go back to basics'. And then get told off as pupil don't know their times tables.
Sorry to moan.

Thoughtsplease you are very rude indeed. Seriously, re read what you've written. From the help in inverted commas to the passive aggressive smiley. Someone was trying to help, maybe it didn't match your request but they did their best. Let's be honest no one else was too interested in your request. You may have a degree but your education is sorely lacking.

Past - thank you for all that you posted. I teach primary maths & found it really really useful.
We also do hopscotch for the 3x table as the answers are odd/even/odd/even and it helps some children to do it that way.

Thoughtsplease - wow how rude. Past went to a lot of trouble to try and help you. Past - I'm sure lots of other parents will find your post very helpful. Thank you.

Thoughts you are rude.
Past thank you for all that detailed info. I for one am grateful and will definitely refer back to it when teaching my girls at home

Haha, it was intended to be tongue in cheek rude!

I didn't ask for an essay on tips for learning, I asked about the style of tests, and a more structured staged approach to learning which the Headtacher has now agreed with.

Yet even when I thanked past the first time stating that I was ok she still went on again with more help.

bamboo so you posted to be rude did you? Or were you interested in the post? It is possible of course to educated and rude.

Past, thanks for your detailed reply. I certainly found it helpful.

Yes it's possible to be educated and rude; you haven't managed that though. You're just rude.

It always amuses me when people complain about someone being rude, by being rude to them. .

I'm bookmarking so I can find some of pasts techniques again. I'm very capable of teaching tables but different children need different approaches, so it's always useful to have a few new techniques in the tool box.