primary expansion? has anyone been through a school that expanded?

[bumbleandbumble]

After fighting very hard to get my child into my top choice primary in London, I have been told that my 1st and 2nd choices of schools are being expanded.

I am worried about the building works/disruption...not to mention losing the "know all the parents/children" feel.

Has anyone had experience of a school expanding? Did the building works bother the children? Did the school improve overall? What about ofsted?

We are going through a school expansion at the moment. It's been a bit crap, tbh. The building works are still going on, the school is overcrowded, the water from the taps is currently unsafe to drink and it looks like it will take absolutely ages for the building to be finished. We went from a PAN of 45 to 60. The lower years are full but the years higher up very empty. The one bright spot is that my daughter is currently in a really small class as there are two Y3 teachers but only 34 children, so will hopefully be getting quite a bit of individual attention.

We have recently gone from an original pan of 90 to 120 and now to 150 per year.

It is disruptive, it definitely is crowded but if the spaces are needed then what are the LEA meant to do? You wanted your child in that school and so do a lot of other parents.

In terms of achievement, the school is still theoretically outstanding. I suspect if they actually tested properly again (they haven't for some time) they might find that isn't the case.

Having c1000 children, little siblings and parents on site at drop off and pick up is "interesting".

Coleridge School in Crouch End, Haringey, London went from a PAN of 60 to one of 120. At the time many parents in the school opposed it for the obvious and really quite sensible reasons and concerns. The school reached its full size last year, and received 200 first preference applications for 120 places, which suggests to me that they have managed to do the expansion without putting parents off. It was in demand before it expanded and is, proportionately just as much in demand at the new size. They must be doing something right.

Dad- did you have children there at the time? What was the building works like?

and just because the demand stayed the same doesn't mean that the children who were there at the time didn't suffer. Of course this years parents are happy...the school is probably brand new,state of the art and with good results.

If my children were entering after the work was completed I would have a different opinion, not to mention an informed choice. I just feel cheated in that I could have got into a different small school..but I chose this one and now it will not be small at all and I wish I chose the other!

The school my DDs (aged 5 and 8) go to is entering its third year of a phased expansion - formerly two form entry, two years of three form entry and now four form entry.

Expansion partly forced through politics - LA couldn't open a new school due to the DofE preference for free schools, 20 kids in the council ward without a school place.

Lots of concern from some parents in consultation meetings.

Experience so far, very positive. There is a new head and deputy head, both dynamic and passionate about what they are doing. Clearly more resources - school buildings are 100+ years old- have had new roof and windows, done properly, plus rather than cramming everything onto the current site we are on two sites because by some miracle the LA didn't flog off the old school buildings on another nearby site. So in essence we have an upper and lower school. DD1 is on one site, DD2 on the other.

The school recorded its best SATS results in 10 years last June, but historically has performed above the national average. Not a faith school, with a massive social and ethnic mix.

So if you're concerned about the direction your school is taking, engage, but also think how if would feel if your dcs were without a school place and the LA were doing nothing.

I already travel with my 4 year old 4 miles away! The school near me is horrible and the good ones less than 1/2 mile away I couldn't get in. I only got in to this one because its a faith school.

I agree that something has to be done about the lack of places. But I am yet to see a building works proposal that doesn't totally disrupt...and its pretty much a fact that it will take too long. This year we had a bulge class and they could even finish that on time!

I simply wish that other schools which already have the space (but are not great performance wise) were selected. Or that the plan included enough money and manpower to complete the works in July/August...you should see how fast some of these buildings go up in the city!

Building work disrupts, yes - half our school playground last year was off limits for this reason. But if your dc is in the early years, is he/she not in the group most likely to benefit from changes in how the school is run?

As for knowing people - well this cuts both ways. How about looking at a larger school as giving you the opportunity to meet more people?

The primary my DC went to went from 2 form entry to 3, tiny site, not a blade of grass, kids like battery hens. The faith school next door with 3xs as much space declined. The atmosphere has changed but that's probably more to do with the new head. The children coped remarkably well with the disruption.

Now the same is about to happen with their Secondary!

If my children are in the early years, how will they benefit the most? I don't see how...because it will take nearly 4 years to complete!
Instead their entire experience of school will be a building site, shifting classrooms and utter disorganisation.

Its just frustrating as a new parent to have chosen a school for its size, quality of teaching, outdoor space, and faith based...

Now after one year, every single one of those aspects will be changing. The school will have new staff, smaller outdoor space, more children and half of all students will be non faith...

Why do the wishes of possible families over ride the current families/students? The less popular school has ample space and would require very little building works. The council keeps saying that the added money would bring so much benefit...well thats even more the reason they should be pouring these benefits and money into a "good" school in order to make it "outstanding"...and then it too would become popular.

And our school is going from 1 form to 3 form and then 4 form...its a massive change, not just an extra 30 children.

I simply wish that other schools which already have the space (but are not great performance wise) were selected

If you were offered a place at such a school would you take it?

No you wouldn't. So how can you expect other parents too?

Honestly is it that hard to see why they've done this?

Parents like yourself could send their kid to their nearest school and provide input and drive to help improve the school. But they don't. So schools remain under performing.

bumble, in your concerns you are no different from any other parent. I think you've highlighted something fundamental - which is that however carefully we assess and select what we think will be a suitable school there are limitations:

1. Our choices aren't limitless - usually we have only a few options and often only one that is both realistic and achievable
2. Schools change, sometimes very rapidly. The amazing head retires, the admission criteria change, a new development is built next door. The changes can be for the good or the reverse, whether this is the case depends on the circumstances.

A few further thoughts -

• Really, if this school expansion is being properly handled by the LA and school management, as you should rightly expect as a parent, there should not be "utter disorganisation", and as a parent you should be informed about what is planned and invited to engage. If this doesn't happen, this perhaps suggests that the school wasn't as well run as you thought.

• In our own school expansion, the changes in fact forced the school to be much more organised, not less - morning drop-off became a lot more structured and more punctual, pick up less chaotic , for the first time ever there were enough seats arranged at the summer concert and thus no brawls between parents

• My comment about your DCs benefitting was based on the fact that they will still be there when the new facilities are complete, and if there are disruptions due to the planned changes, they're at a stage where formal academics are not so critical. But see my comments upthread about our schools experience - plus a better Ofsted which I forgot to mention. My elder DD is in year 4 and is benefitting from brand new classrooms, new ICT equipment and more specialist teaching because there are more teachers on the staff as well as much better morale than there existed before the expansion began.

I can't comment on the faith based aspect, as it's not relevant in our case, but completely see your point of view.

If you are in London, and really not happy, you could consider asking to go on the waiting list for the schools nearer to you. People really do move, especially when their children are young so you may be surprised. There are also a surprisingly large in our part of London minority who decide to give the outstanding state primary a go but conclude they'd really prefer the private sector and bail out in reception or y1.

Our local (highly deisrable) primary school has increased this year from 60-90 because the catchment had shrunk to ridiculous levels - 3 streets and not the whole of those 3 streets (many families have 3 or 4 children and move further away when PFB has got in) When my DS1 got a place he was only one of 7 non-siblings out of 60 .

This thread sadly does read as 'I got a place in a lovely little faith school' and I want to keep this all to myself ... When thousands of parents are putting up with schools they didn't want, siblings in different schools, bulge classes, impossible journeys. It's unfortunate for you but at the end of the day you got one if your first choices. No one likes the current problems LAs face but we have to live with it

Exactly MrsH - the two highest performing schools locally (neither of which we could have got into) have similar tiny catchments, which are are also very MC, as the vanishingly small percentages of pupils on FSM tells you.

interesting article in the standard today about ending sibling priority - have started a thread in 'education' about it so as not to go off-topic here

I deliberately didn't choose the infant school nearest to us as our first choice because this Sept it is starting building works to go from a 3 form entry to a 4 form from Sept 2015. Half the playground was going to disappear and as my DS would only be there for 3 years, he would have had all the disruption with no benefits - he would be leaving as the 3 yr phased building program finishes. The partner junior school is also expanding from 5 form to 6 form entry so he would then have building work there too.

I'm sure lots of schools manage expansion well and I get it's needed particularly because LA have a duty to make more places but can't actually open more schools anymore, but in our case it would have been all the disruption for no benefits.

My DC are at a school which has gone from 3 form to 4 form entry. It already had a bulge class before permanent expansion was agreed.

To be honest has been fine. My younger, shyer, quieter child was in the first 4 form year and I worried she'd be overwhelmed but to he honest, they mostly hang out with their 30 classmates. But the bigger school does mean they get some amazing opportunities.

Re: building works. They had some space to expand into hut have just completed a year long build which has changed flow around school and improved library and Hall space (plus kitchen for ks1 meals). Kids love it and disruption was really minimal.

Overall, school us better both in terms of facilities and opportunities, bigger.

I think its really obnoxious to say "I want the school all to myself"
Of course that is not the case.

I made my choice to travel for a better school. Other parents are welcome to do the same if they can/want to... that is not the debate.

I am, as someone mentioned, irritated that this information, even if its a possible expansion, was not told to parents before making the very important choice of accepting a primary place. I most certainly would not have chosen this school if I knew that the first 3.5 years would be a building site.

The proposal is a complete new school, and there is no way in the world that it will not be disruptive. I am not opposed to expanding, but from 1 form to 4? On a very tiny property? With public housing and 2 other developments on either side of the property...its a perfect storm of upheaval.

Anyway, As a foreigner, I can now officially say that so far the NHS has been brilliant and the education system and the councils in London are horrible.

I have children at Coleridge. What happened was the school doubled its intake so took a few years to fill up. The fitted the extra children in by taking over a site on the otherside of the road so what we really have now is an infants section on one side and a junior section on the other. I understand that there were some issues regarding building work for perhaps a year, but really nothing to worry about now.

Thats the problem...there is no extra space/second building and the work will take 3 years! I would less concerned if it took one year to complete.