In-year transfer appeal, Y3 - do I have much chance of success?

[Hollyhocks7]

Hi, I have been reading previous threads on primary appeals and wondered whether any of the MN appeal experts could tell me whether my case is worth appealing.
We moved from central to outer London 3 months ago and I want to get my DD into our local catholic school (we are catholic and she is currently at a catholic school) as we are now 7 miles away from her current school which represents a journey time of 50-70 mins depending on traffic. However, the main reason for wanting her to attend this school is to make new friends and settle into the area. She is a very sociable child who is desperate to make friends near her new home. It is not possible for her to have play dates with her current school friends midweek now as the traffic is worse the later we leave for the drive home, so we literally jump in the car as soon as we get out of the school gates. The drive home also means she can no longer attend any after school clubs at her current school. Another important reason for wanting to transfer to this school is that DD will be making her first holy communion this year so it is particularly important to me that she remains in a catholic school as some of the preparation for this is done in class. She has started to get to know a few children at our new parish church, and will get to know many more when the Holy Communion preparation classes (at the church) start next month. Most of these children also attend the school I want to appeal to. However, the school seems hostile to the idea of me appealing so I am wondering whether it is worth it. There are also other things that the school would offer my DC (music and other clubs over and above other local schools and indeed her current school). We are already on the waiting list and on those of 2 other catholic schools in the borough. There are 30 in the class. 3 form entry.

Would it be wrong of the panel or Head to suggest I should apply to another school?

The head can suggest whatever they want outside the hearing. Once you are in the hearing it should purely be about why your daughter needs a place at this school. It is not the job of the appeal panel to find her a place at another school. Even if the panel or the head is trying to be helpful it is, in my view, poor practise for them to make any such suggestions in the hearing. If it happened and you lost your appeal I would refer the matter to the LGO as it calls into question whether the panel has incorrectly considered this other school in making their decision.

Dear Admission appeal experts, I have now received the statement from the Admission Authority ( school governors as a VA school) putting their case against admitting my dd into year 3 above PAN. I am a bit puzzled about some of the things they say:

1. They state that going over PAN would require them to take qualifying measures such as employing another teacher or building another classroom, but as this isn't an ICS appeal surely this is not true?
2. They explain under which of the over subscription criteria my dd was considered - which I think is odd as the school is full so surely that is irrelevant
3. They also state the distance of our home from the school and dad's place on the waiting list in their statement - surely this too is irrelevant if it already clear that the school is full and the appeal is a stage 2 appeal? Also , is it correct that they inform the panel of the position on the waiting list?

The PAN is 90 and they state that they are not over this number in any year group. No Y3 appeals have been lodged before. What do you think?

It looks to me like they've recycled the case they use for Reception appeals without giving it any thought. You are correct that there will be no need for qualifying measures if your daughter is admitted. On the other matters, they do have to show the appeal panel that the correct process was followed in deciding not to offer a place to your daughter. In this case that could simply have been a statement that the school is already full in Y3. But the hearing still has to go through both stages. The position of your daughter on the waiting list is irrelevant to the appeal and is not something the appeal panel should take into account.

If they are not over 90 in any year group at the moment that is good. It means they can't argue that the school is over full and bursting at the seams. At worst it is full to nominal capacity. If any year groups are below 90 it is under capacity which suggests they can cope with another pupil.

It also says that there is another child who qualifies on the criteria above dd (ahead of her) which again, I don't think is relevant

You are right. For an appeal it isn't relevant.

I suspect that this is a school that does not have a lot of appeals and that as PRH says they have recycled appeal documents that are more applicable to the block appeals for reception.
No appeal panel should be receiving information on where the appellant is on the waiting list and one of the reasons is that the panel should make their mind up on the appeal based on the evidence not that they are top of the waiting list, so will get a place soon!
What you should do in part 1 of the appeal is attack issue 1 around the employment of extra teacher, new classroom etc by asking what the sizes are of the year 3 classrooms, whether they could accommodate another pupils if required and therefore no need for either extra teacher or classroom. Also ask them what they would if the appeal was successful - would they employ an extra teacher and build a new classroom for your child - of course not, they would just run with 31 in the class.
At issue 2 I think they are doing this correctly as they do need not only to consider whether they have got to PAN of 90 but could they accommodate an extra pupil. As far as the distance to home measurement, again ask questions that seem sensible. For instance, you quote a distance to our house,can you confirm that there are pupils who live further away then this. Yes, so under normal circumstances my child would be offered a place at the school. I would also ask them to clarify whether any class has had more than 30 in it in the last 3 years - bet they have - that is very different from they currently only have 30 in each class. I also find it difficult to believe that they have never had a year 3 appeal, but proving it is impossible.
Their case is not very strong from what you have said in the posts and by attacking it and knocking their case further, you would not expect to win an appeal at the end of part 1 of the case. What you are doing is reducing the bar in terms of the level of prejudice to overcome, in terms of your child's case for admission. That is why it is important to both attack the school case but also have a strong case personally for part 2.

Thank you both - this is so helpful to me - Admission I thought that merely pointing out that qualifying measures do not come into play as it is not ICS would be enough, so thank you for explaining that I should question them on this.
do you mean that knowing that someone is no. 1 in the waiting list would make the panel inclined to not uphold appeal as they think they'll get in anyway, or the opposite? We are no. 15!
With the
From the information I have already requested from the school, I know that the Y3 classrooms are each roughly 54 sq metres - is that average?
Double checked and actually they said they haven't had any y3 in the last 5 years.

And do you mean that it is significant that given the distances for last reception admission refusal, my dd would have been admitted on the normal admissions round? To suggest to the panel that dd is disadvantaged through simply not being here for the reception entry?

I was quite deliberately vague on what effect knowing the position on the waiting list can have, as it can work both ways. It simply is not best practice for the panel to know, but it does frequently come out, especially if the parents are no 1 on the waiting list.
There have been different sizes for classrooms over the years. Many were built to 48 Sq metres going back in time. There was then a period where 52sq metres was considered a suitable size. However the latest version of what is suitable would suggest for a standard classroom a size of 56sqmetres to 63sqmetres. However it does depend on what else there is in the way of facilities, so is there separate ITC facilities, a large wide corridor in which small groups can work etc. I can't remember exactly when these regs came in but it was somewhere around 2005, so any classrooms built before that are likely to be smaller than that. I would class 54 sq metres as being perfectly adequate for 30 pupils and unless it was a peculiar shape probably more than that. I do not see the class size as the clinching argument as to winning a case or not.
I would not go as far as to say that they have been disadvantaged. What you are trying to point out to the panel, without ramming it down their throats that if this reception year you would have been one of the pupils offered a place. You are neutralising any attempt by the admission authority to suggest that all the rest of the pupils live closer. The other question that is relevant to you is that as a catholic school where is the next nearest catholic school. If it obviously much further away it would be worth asking the admission authority representative what do they consider the next nearest catholic school. If you have an idea of the distance then you can then ask the school rep whether they would accept that it is X miles away and is therefore twice the distance from their school. Again it is just chipping away at the idea that there is significant prejudice to the school having to admit your child.

You mean that if the next catholic school is twice the distance (which it is), there is significant prejudice to my child?

Not directly as in theory the fact that this is a Catholic school is irrelevant. However, if the appeal panel is sympathetic to the idea that Catholic children should be prioritised where possible, pointing out that the next nearest school is twice as far away may help. It also helps to reinforce the point that your child would have got a place if you had applied in the normal admissions round for Reception.

Thank you again. I am starting to write my appeal statement this evening. Should it concentrate on our case for needing this particular school place or should it also attempt to counter some of the Admission authority's case against admitting DD, or should challenging the school's statement be left to verbal questioning at the appeal itself?

Something else I've noticed is that in the letter from the Head teacher informing us that there was no place for our daughter, the Head stated that y3 already had 2 extra pupils, which is at odds with what the admissions officer told me verbally and also what has been put in the official appeal statement. Should I ask for clarification over this too?

Concentrate on why you want this particular school. You can counter the authority's case if you want but personally I would do that when questioning the presenting officer in the hearing.

The inconsistency isn't of itself going to win your appeal but it does suggest some confusion in what they are doing. I would raise it but don't spend too much time on it.

I would also ask them to clarify whether any class has had more than 30 in it in the last 3 years - bet they have - that is very different from they currently only have 30 in each class. I also find it difficult to believe that they have never had a year 3 appeal, but proving it is impossible.
Admission - I haven't requested this information (whether they've had over 30 in any class over the last 3 years) from the school in advance of the appeal. Does this matter? Or can I just ask the question after they have presented their case?

You can ask the question after they have presented their case.

If there is time before the hearing I would still try to get an answer from them in advance. Personally I prefer to know the answer before I ask a question in a hearing although that isn't always possible.

Thanks. I'm going to try and get an answer first, but I'm just anticipating not getting a reply as it's half term now.

I'm not sure whether I should contact the school for more information - I think they haven't put forward a very strong case and I worry that if more questions get submitted to the governors it might prompt one of them to look more closely at the case they are having to defend and then change their statement.

Any questions you ask are likely to be answered by the school's admin staff, not the governors. It is very unlikely that they would change their case at this stage.

Thank you. On another minor point, I've just received all the paperwork back from democratic services ahead of the hearing. The school have sent the questions I emailed to them (with their answers) in to democratic services and they are included in the pack. Is this usual? It doesn't bother me at all,but I almost don't need to ask the questions on the day now if the panel has already got a copy.

I've not come across this before. In my view they are wrong to do this. The questions and answers do not form part of your case. If the answer to one of your questions was damaging to your case you would not ask that question in the hearing. That choice has now been taken away from you.

If any of the answers are potentially damaging to your case and you lose your appeal I would refer the matter to the LGO.

But are democratic services also at fault for sending to panel members? Should I raise it with them?

If they only sent the questions and answers to you there is no problem. If they sent them to panel members they are, in my view, wrong for the reasons given in my last post.

I don't think there is any point in raising it with them at the moment. If the packs have gone to panel members there isn't anything they can do to change the situation other than cancelling the hearing and rearranging with a different panel. And if they don't agree that they've got it wrong they won't do anything.

Its unfortunate that they did this, but actually to take a positive from it, it shows that they do not seem to have too strong a case if they have to include your question and answers.
As long as there is nothing that seriously harms your case I would just run with what you have got. You could try seeing whether the panel have got the Q and A by asking a question to just clarify something in one of the answers.

Thank you both. The questions and answers have been sent to panel members- I phoned democratic services to find out. They thought it was appropriate to do that as it had been sent to them by the school. I have looked at the questions and answers again and do not think my case is much compromised by this except that now the panel will know that my daughter would have got into the school based on this years distance cut off, but not in her own year of entry. Also it will just seem a bit silly asking questions that everyone already knows the answers to! It is annoying. Maybe I should ask the school the 2 extra questions I have on Monday ahead of the hearing. I think you may be right about the school not being experienced with this type of appeal.