Rewarding cleverness not hard work...

[MerryMarigold]

I am so sad today. My ds1 (y4) struggles at school - academically mostly. Anyway, it was his first day yesterday and a new 'points' system was introduced where you get prizes when you receive a certain number of points. He was getting upset this morning because he said only the clever children got points yesterday, and that the teacher only asked 'the smart children' questions and then they got points. He kept saying he is not smart and that is why he is not getting points.

This has been his experience throughout primary school, nearly always the last to be recognised, or getting very few rewards - to get onto 'gold', to get a silver pencil, to get a certificate. And never ever receiving the top prizes - child of the term, a gold pencil. I know they do try and reward effort too otherwise he would never get anything, but it is always belatedly. He tries so hard and feels so rubbish. I know this is true, because I know the kids who get all the recognition. They are already sailing through school without it! (Ds2 is one of 'them' - great for him, but he really doesn't need it). I actually believe ds1 tries harder than 'those' kids because it is so much harder for him.

It makes me so upset to think this is going to be Ds1's experience of school for the rest of his school years, gradually undermining his self confidence, so I just wanted to remind you all out there (though I am sure all MN teachers are very lovely!). It's bad enough when it gets to exam grades but surely when you are giving out points, stars, rewards, it should be the effort that counts.

Talk to the school / teacher about your concerns. They are not mind-readers & will not necessarily know that their current ideas have problems.
DSs school is all about rewarding effort however they generally do it by 'most improved' as they have a lot of children with issues - it doesn't work for those in the top set though & last year DS was quite dejected as although he consistently worked hard & got full marks for spelling/maths tests/ reading everyday because he was consistently good he wasn't rewarded. We mentioned this to his teacher on parents evening & they tweaked their system to recognise this kind of effort too.

I completely disagree that being in the top group is a reward in itself.

Children are not being rewarded just because they are given work that is appropriate for them. I appreciate that being in the top group mightbe good for their confidence, but that doesn't make it a reward. Especially when we're talking about maths or English, which the child might well be good at but not particularly enjoy.

Even the clever children aren't likely to be rewarded for a piece of work if they haven't worked at it and put in effort. Their need for reward is no more or less than anyone else's.

I remember one of my ds's complaining that he was on the top table not because the work was harder, but because they got more of it and got less help to do it. As an adult, I can understand why he was getting more work and less support than other children, but in a child's mind, it understandably just seems unfair.

You could just as easily say that children on the bottom table are rewarded because they get more TA attention, but again, it's not a reward to just be given what you need in primary education.

Schools should be celebrating every child's strengths with rewards and recognition, whether that be being very clever, very kind, very sporty, very helpful, very well behaved or whatever.

I think it's really sad to see a parent making a case for children who are doing well at something to be rewarded less for it.

If schools are going to give out rewards, they should so for may reasons, including sport achievement, academic achievement, empathy, working hard. All achievement is then applauded. The fact that some kids won't get a particular award does not matter - no one can be good at everything - but the school should ensure that all children have a shot at at least one "prize".

Agree that more thought should be put into recognition ( I hate the word 'rewards' - a reward is what you give to incentivise animals (food in the case of animals), and that extra effort should be recognised in any endeavour.
Wonky if your Dc is getting top marks all the time then the teacher is being lazy and setting him work that is too easy. Always better to have something that cannot be completed in the time so that the Dc always has the opportunity to improve. Very bad for the DC to feel complacent about their achievement - when they go out into the world (or go to a more academic environment) comes as a rude shock to find that they are not king of the hill. Some schools do not look beyond their own narrow intake.

It is a reward to be on the top table because of the status associated with it, not because you get appropriate work (in my experience it is seen as good by other kids in Primary - certainly as far as Y4). Also,(again only in my experience), these kids get a lot of teacher attention as opposed to TA attention which is also a good thing. So far this has been great for ds2.

I also think enjoying the work (which you often do if it's not too much of a struggle) and being able to grasp what you are being taught, is a huge 'reward' in and of itself. I speak as the top table kid (though I don't remember having half as many 'awards' when I was a kid).

I know schools should recognise all kinds of attainment and excellence but I still think the struggling kids do need more encouragement of this kind as these formative years are so central to self esteem.

There is no status attached to being on the top table in a school that celebrates everyone's achievements, and I don't think it follows that you will enjoy work just because it's not that hard. All children should have to struggle a bit when they're learning new things, or they aren't being challenged and stretched enough.

Struggling kids might need more encouragement than they are currently getting, but that doesn't mean they need more encouragement than other children. Your academic child is not the same as everyone's academic child.

Maybe you could go in and have a chat with the teacher, ask for some specific things that your ds needs to do to show that he's making effort. Ask her if she thinks he is trying his best or if there is more that could fairly be expected of him. Tell her that he's not feeling very confident, and ask her to give you instructions that you can remind him of in the morning, that if he follows will help him to achieve. She will want to know if he's unhappy at school, and remember your ds's perception of the situation might really be how it is.

Fwiw, the school I work in rewards good behaviour, kindness and good manners above anything else, and it seems to work well, because every NT child has the ability to control those things.

My observation of my child being on top table is that she is expected to work unaided most of the time and "the teacher never notices what I do because she is too busy sorting out the noisy children". She spent a lot of last year thinking that whatever she did was not good enough - no intrinsic thinking that they must be doing well because of being on top table.

All children deserve to be recognised for their efforts, wherever they lie in the class hierarchy

Merry, it was a difficult conversation as my child has never had a reading award despite being two years ahead in reading.

Why, I guess because it came naturally, doesn't mean she didn't put a huge amount of effort in.

some of the top table children DO struggle. My daughter can't see the text, she has coordination problems and hypermobility as well as some sort of memory issue but has a good memory (yes really), has a language disorder and is quite probably dyspraxic but she works exceptionally hard constantly and is extremely well behaved. She is top group because she is lucky to be bright but also because she WORKS HARD. if she didn't then being bright would be irrelevant because with her problems she would be down near the bottom. She has been able to read since 3 but letters are always fuzzy so it is exhausting for her and she has to peer at everything so something simple like doing a worksheet means she struggles to see it and then struggles to see her own writing. Imagine how frustrating that is when your brain is perfectly capable of doing the work if you can just access it in the first place. And no top groups don't tend to get extra teacher time at all, usually they are left to do it themselves.

ALL children should be rewarded for whatever their achievements are be it managing to sit still when they have ADHD or standing up in front of the class to tell people something when they are a very shy child or trying hard to write neatly and so on.

Hang on... OP's dc is complaining after one day! Assuming that all the children except him got a sticker he's probably one of the majority that didn't.
And also she gave the stickers out for "answering the questions". Probably she asked those who had their hands up. The teacher may well not have been aware who was "the clever ones", she'll realise over the year, and probably, ime she'll then disproportionally ask the ones whom she's not sure know the right answer ie not "the clever ones".

And the top table is not a reward in itself.
For my dc, dd1 wants to learn, to stretch herself, she doesn't need incentives to work, but she loves getting them.
Dd2 would rather work well within herself and needs incentives to keep going, she would be more likely to be trying to move down a table so she can do it easily.
Ds has concentration issues and couldn't care less about stickers (in fact he'd rather not get them) or a lot of incentives offered and certainly doesn't care about which table he's on. In fact his opinion of being moved up was: "you just get more boring work, have to finish more boring stuff and what's the point to doing more if others don't have to do it?"

I have limited experience with only one of mine at school so far (just started year 1) but wanted to observe how difficult it must be to motivate ALL the different children in a school given the range of motivations that will work across the whole cohort.

When I was a kid I was VERY motivated by praise and wanted to please the teachers. My DD is a bright girl but if she gets a certificate at the weekly assembly she really isn't that excited. Nor when she gets home and Dad/grandparents praise her for it is she all that bothered! Although she is clever she is often quite disengaged and dozy in class.

It surprises me really as I would have lapped it all up when I was a kid. Not sure what motivates my DD - but I think it is being allowed to do what she likes doing! Then she can be VERY motivated.

My little boy (nearly 3) shows signs of being much more like me. He started his nursery ballet class yesterday and he was right there at the front, 110% focus and hanging on the teacher's every word!

Hang on... OP's dc is complaining after one day! Assuming that all the children except him got a sticker he's probably one of the majority that didn't

True. He didn't really give it a chance. It was 'points' (which is seems are easy to get as he got quite a few today for a timestable game). Now he has some points he is happy. However, his perception is that it was all the clever ones who got points on the first day. And in my experience of various awards etc. it is usually the 'clever' ones who get them so it's not surprising he jumped to that conclusion really - or that he 'filtered' the top kids getting them even if a few others got them too. He said he did have his hand up a lot, but didn't get picked to answer - I just find it sad that he thought the reason was that he's 'not clever'. I'm sure that's not the reason really, but it's how he thinks 'school' views him. I have not given him this impression as I always tell him he is very clever, and I believe he is. He is clever in a different way but not in a 'school' way. (I won't even say 'academic' because quite possibly he could do very well at University).

I would focus on boosting his confidence at home. It sounds like he is really lacking it. Some children have that kind of personality and although things schools do can contribute, schools are not the only causes of it.
I wonder if, in any sense you are reminding him of the fact he hasn't got the awards...does he know you are upset by the system? This could well make him feel upset about it too.
It is such early days, that I don't think I would be going in about it. If you want to write a note in the contact book mentioning he could do with a bit of a confidence boost, then fine, but I don't think that in the 2nd week in, it is the time to be going in to complain about the approach. And tbh, it is difficult as a parent to fully know who is receiving the rewards and what for. We don't always have the full picture. Parents evening might be a good time to say if he hasn't received any awards by then...by then, more time will have passed and the teacher will be able to talk about her approach and that of the school with a few weeks to go on.
I would focus strongly on praising his strengths at home, rather than mentioning the awards he doesn't get. FWIW, I have a child who can lack confidence too....saying 'I am rubbish at x,y and z'. With some of it,we have got to a point where we can laugh together about some of the issues and agree that yes, long distance running isn't his strength...he is always last. And he has learned that he often won't get any prizes, that is just life and not the end of the world.

Thanks.

I know it sounds like an overreaction on the second day of school! But really, it's just that it's gone on for so many years. I guess each year you think, "This teacher will be different". I certainly won't be storming in there but we'll keep talking about the confidence. The school know about the confidence issues. In fact his teacher brought it up last year in the first term as he was crying a lot when asked to do things. He goes to a special group to help with it. And yet, last year they nearly took away his small part in the christmas play as another child was better at it! (I did fight for that one as he was so uspet!). Sometimes people don't stop to think what they are doing, even though they are aware of the issue. This is what can happen where performance is more important than the child.

Tbh, I don't care at all about the awards and always say it doesn't really matter and they could only pick a few blah blah blah and try to be blase even if I am inwardly grimacing for him. And we try and do all sorts to boost his confidence at home (I have a whole gallery of his art framed and hung!). But I suppose it is like going into a job everyday where you are undervalued, underpaid and overwhelmed! However loving your family is, it's not going to compensate. Of course, it's even more so the other way round. School can never compensate for a family which brings a child down and I would never expect it to.

I would check that this is not his perception and that he sees others being asked because he perceives them as being clever but maybe they were asked something at the beginning of the lesson and had misconceptions and the teacher is actually asking again at the end to ensure those misconceptions have been addressed and therefore his/her points may be due to progress/effort within that lesson not merely just being asked again because of ability.

Teachers use this as a tool to assess understanding, misconceptions and to encouraged deeper thoughts. Some children in my class last year complained they had not had a turn doing our morning calendar when they all had had at least 5 turns each. I made sure I went through the houses so I could assess each child in turn for their Maths - counting, place value, data handling, time etc.

Questioning should be noted on planning and use of different questioning strategies should be incorporated into every lesson - lollysticks, pass the parcel type game etc rather than just hands up. Questions should be differentiated to the needs and ability of each child. In my class 'I don't know' is not a valid answer...children are encouraged to ask for more information, more thinking time, discussion time, another example etc.

Higher order questioning is a difficult skill to grasp and shows more than simple recall of facts. Children have to justify their thoughts, analyse, infer and evaluate instead of just regurgitating facts. This is not just a skill to use during carpet times, questioning goes on during all the lesson to draw out every bit from the children and stretch them further etc. Teachers are assessed themselves on their use of questioning as a tool to support learning by the head when they get observed. There is no point doing a lesson without knowing where the children are at first and that informs how you then deliver the next part of the lesson - do they need to go over things/do you need to scrap the lesson because they know it already and take them onto their next steps/do some need more support to become secure.

So ds2 reached silver level yesterday (took ds1 2 terms). I asked him what he did to get onto silver, "Oh I got it for being clever."

I did say you must have done something and then he went into some details but that was his basic assumption.

Sometimes I feel like I am constantly RE-educating my kids.

What actually is silver level? What do children get for achieving each of the levels? Is it about rewarding or about setting or what? I'm not sure I get it.

Maybe I and other posters haven't really understood, and you are right that the schools reward system isn't really fair.

They get a certificate when they get on gold. Doesn't affect their setting. You can move bronze-silver-gold for all sorts of reasons eg. tidying up, being kind etc. but the default one is good work (as opposed to hard work).

If you are able to get to silver on the second day it doesn't sound like a very good system, what happens when they reach gold in a week, there's nowhere else to go for the rest of the year.