What are the general advantages of private over state primary education? How do we choose?

[cakesonatrain]

DS is 3 so school applications are obviously in mine and DH's minds. We are moving house soon, and the new area has excellent state primaries, and grammar schools. We can afford to go private for primary (the school we're considering will cost a smidge less than nursery fees).
Obviously every individual school is different and has different pros and cons. But are there any generally acknowledged benefits of a small private primary?
I think what I want to understand is, what would we actually be buying for our 2 grand a term or whatever it is, over and above/different from what the children would get from the excellent state school?

I know we need to go and visit the schools, but obviously we can't do that right now. What sorts of things should we be looking for/asking about when we do visit?

Can you give us any help in deciding? DH is very pro-private, my position is something like "I'm happy to spend the money if we are really buying an advantage and significantly better experience for our children, but imagine what we could do with that sort of money if we decided not to spend it on school fees"

[BeansieBeansieBeansie]

You simply can't replicate the independent school experience, even if you are very invested.

In our case, you cannot give your child acres of fields and woodlands to have play time in as opposed to a small concrete square.

Or dedicated music, sports, and language teachers for your child's class lessons at infants level.

Or the access to round robin tournaments for cricket, football and rugby despite your child being rubbish at them.

Or games every day with their full class.

Extra curricular activities are seen as the icing on the cake, but we have found they are an integral part of our son's schooling.

And so anything he does outside of school is an added bonus.

[BeansieBeansieBeansie]

Cakes - go and see the independent school, and the local primary.

Then have an honest think about your son's capabilities. He may be bright, but he is a summer boy, and therefore at a massive disadvantage when he starts in terms of development.

What school feels right to you? Where do you think he will thrive? And not just in reception, in year 3,5 etc.

Only you and your DH will know. But in choosing a school, always go with a back up plan.

[cakesonatrain]

I don't even know if he is bright. He's only just 3!
The summer-born thing does worry me a lot though. This does seem to be a problem that chucking money at might actually help :) (yes, I know it's not that simple)

[cakesonatrain]

Oh, bloody hell. I was practically convinced earlier on that we should go with the state school, but now you remind me about the summer-born disadvantage that sways me back the other way

[cakesonatrain]

I know we need to visit the schools, but we've only just bought a house in the area so we are having all this "oh, what shall we dooo? angst when visiting isn't possible!

[Twodownonetogo]

Choose the school to suit your child if you are in that lucky position. IME parents like to choose prep first to prime their children for grammar entry if they are in a grammar zone. But who knows whether your child is academic anyway.
Not all private schools are equal, as all state schools are not equal. What are your priorities for your child? I mean what sort of private school would you choose for your child? A super selective which comes with the assessments to get a place and then on track for Oxbridge? A nice school with smaller class sizes and happy kids but not particularly academic and mixed exit results to other non selective private schools, free schools, local etc? There are all different stratas of private schools. Besides the amazing grounds, buildings, inspired teaching, amazing resources, fantastic music, art and sport opportunities and an enormous range of extracurricular activities, good private schooling is a whole experience not just smaller classes and a distinctive uniform. For example music at a good private school is more than just learning an instrument, it is excellent lessons, opportunities to play in an orchestra, section, quartet, jazz band and regular chances to perform to school and parents. Sports is not just jigging about in a school hall. They can choose their sport after being introduced to a range and then are coached to a very competent level with opportunities to compete, tennis, fencing, rugby, hockey, football, cricket, swimming etc. And this continues with drama, art, debating, chess and so on.
Choose what suits your childs personality and ability.

[BeansieBeansieBeansie]

I know that it's confusing. And seems ridiculous now with him being so tiny.

Just go and see the schools. I promise it will help either way.

[toadhillflax]

Very interesting debate. I've got a bright boy - (all 2a's at the end of Year 1). He's interested, engaged and motivated at his 'requires improvement' state primary. We could easily afford private (and people think we're crazy for not doing it) but for me it comes down to the fact that I believe that whether he is state (with 11+ tutoring) or private educated, he will pass his 11+ (this year 35% of his school passed - predictably all middle class children, who had been tutored). We're in grammar school area, so 11+ is the focus.

I also won't be moving him because
a) I like him/me to be part of the local village community and have friends he can call on
b) he has a fab childminder attached to the school (as he is an only child I like that he experiences the 'large family' vibe there)
c) he loves school, there is the small risk he might not like a new school
d) I think it is important to learn to work with and respect people of all backgrounds, and I think that is harder to do in private, where the intake is more homogenous

Only time will tell if we have made the right decision...

[mandy214]

OP I think lots of people are obviously giving you the benefit of their experience but to be honest you need to compare these schools (state and private) in this specific atea. If you are in the area I think you are, the preps dont have woodland and acres of fields, nor are the state schools 'good' - they're outstanding (one of the local schools achieved the 2nd highests SATS results in the whole country last year).

So its all really useful (and you did ask a general question) but ultimately your choice comes down to these particular schools, not a general public v state dilemma. You really have to do your research and look round the options.

[Ilovenicesoap]

Goodness so many parents convinced that private is the only way.

Both my Dc have gone streets ahead of friends Dc who were at private schools -very well regarded private schools that delivered average results !

If you have bright DC and are really involved parents with good state schools I wouldn't bother unless you have money to burn.
Ps the acres of woodland to play in made me chuckle !
Cos state parents don't have access to the countryside

[areyoutheregoditsmemargaret]

Sorry, Op you do have to go and look and make your own mind up. You can't do it sight unseen.

I also have one state and one private

Advantages of private

More sport, if that matters to you, my dc aren't sporty so it's a red herring

Better music, again if that's important.

It's a selective prep, the kids there are pretty clever and that creates a very sparky enivornment, lots of ideas being bounced around

Mainly fantastic teaching (though the state has a lot of brilliant teachers too dealing with a far more challenging bunch). The teaching is to a higher level because of the intake though that doesn't really seem an issue at primary level, I know so many super-bright, super-interested-in-the-world children at state schools who are clearly doing brilliantly.

Better feedback - though I think the state would give better feedback if there were problems, because dc were doing well I just heard "oh, they're brilliant." In fact dd1 isn't brilliant at many things and the private school focuses on this (as well as encouraging her in the areas where she's strong)

Feeds into a fantastic secondary - the main reason for the choice

Advantages of state:

Saving on fees

Cheaper and less silly uniform

More school trips and genera "fun", partly because terms are so much longer

I think better pastoral care, more emphasis on the "whole" child, partly as a result of children coming from wildly varying backgrounds and the school trying to celebrate something about everyone - not just the high fliers. This is not the case at the private school

Most importantly to me - the social mix. The private school is very limited. We're in London and most parents (not us) work in the City. The state primary has children of every imaginable background. London has become so divided socially that it's become increasingly important to me that my children mix with children who don't live in huge houses and go skiing in February as a matter of course.

All in all, I advise people to go state and move private only if they're not happy after a year or two.

[cakesonatrain]

Yes mandy, you're right. The state schools are outstanding - one of the reasons we bought the house, of course (and the price...).

[cakesonatrain]

We're not in London though. I suspect that the catchment for the outstanding state primary down the road includes many families like our own.

The private school we're currently looking at (also very local) has a big focus on pastoral care, which is something that is important to me.

[BeansieBeansieBeansie]

Of course everyone has access to the countryside.

But for every play our choice was tiny concrete playground, or big fields.

It's all part of it.

[Princesselsaanna]

We moved ours from an outstanding state primary to the prep of a nominally selective 4-18 school and you simply can't compare them. Academically my mid average child is doing far better than she would have in the state school. I wouldn't say that she's streets ahead of children in state schools but she's acres ahead of where SHE would be in a state school. There is no acceptance of mediocrity.

Honest feedback. Reports are no longer cut and paste jobs, they are constructive and honest and are very clear about strengths and weaknesses. Open door policy, if I want to speak to the teacher at any point I can, if I want to speak to the head, she's there. The school asks for feedback from the parents and acts on it.

Excellent pastoral care. When there is an issue I'm not just told about the issue but what they have done about it, nothing is brushed under the carpet.

Proper sport, not just games in the playground. There are 3 double lessons of sport a week and they start playing in matches from year 2 with regular hockey, rounders, netball and swimming matches from year 3.

Proper music lessons, compulsory musical instrument lessons in year 3 and emphasis on reading and writing music. My children aren't musical and wouldn't want to learn and instrument but this is good to get a broad knowledge.

Wrap around care and huge numbers of after school clubs run by outside organisations every evening at far less cost than doing the same classes out of school.

Disadvantages. Fees obviously. There's a higher turnover of children than in the state school, the school is full and holds a waiting list but there are frequently children moving abroad or to other parts of the country or to other local schools both state and private.

A co-ed year group of 1 class of 20 can be restrictive socially and can lead to micromanaging of situations which really ought to be left to resolve themselves. If it's a difficult year group it can lead to friendship issues which might be diluted in a larger school.

I like most of the parents but I have found it very pushy, some parents are quick to criticise the school which is vocally non selective for not being academic enough and are always looking to complain and to think that the grass is greener despite the 11+ results being excellent and absolutely in line with what the school has advised the parents. I have found that I have needed to really be very strong at not listening to the gossip and to only worry about my own child. I think that this is a common feeling in areas which have a lot of private schools all in competition with each other.

[toadhillflax]

Are there 20 children in a class in private schools? I had assumed it was more like 12. In that case I have another reason to keep my DS at his state primary, his class size is only 17 pupils, so I could in effect be paying for larger classes!

[Hakluyt]

You don't want 12 in a class. You definitely don't want 12 in a year.

[Greythorne]

Why do you say that, Hak?

[Princesselsaanna]

Socialkm

[Princesselsaanna]

S

[Princesselsaanna]

Socially 12 is too small,especially if it's co-ed. I think that a year group of 20 can be too small for some children although the school does most things yr1&2, 3&4 and 5&6 which is good. A class size of 20 is ideal in my opinion as all classes also have a full time TA. It allows for discussion, group work, varied friendships and setting by ability whilst still allowing individual attention.

[Missunreasonable]

toadhill most state primary schools don't have 17 pupils per class, certainly not in heavily populated areas. Many areas have a huge shortage of primary school places and classes are up the legal maximum of 30. I know one of the prep schools local to me has an influx of children at year 3 because the local state primary school has classes of 20-23 in KS1 but they combine the classes at the start of ks2 so classes are then 40-45 which is far too large.
Class sizes in private schools vary but I certainly don't know of any that have 30. Most of the ones that I am aware of have between 12 and 20 per class and will not go over 20 but there is one which has classes of up to 26 (and charges the same fees as the others). We looked around the school which has 26 pupils per class and made a swift exit despite its good results.
I'm sure if most people had the choice of an excellent state school with only 17 pupils per class that a lot less would choose to go private but sadly not everyone has that choice and don't want their children in a class of 30-40 in the juniors.

[Hakluyt]

Because imagine only having a friendship pool of 5 other girls. Imagine not having a big enough group to even play 5 a side in th playground. Imagine working with the same 11 people in every lesson for 6 years.......

[Hakluyt]

And remember that a large state school class will usually have mor than just the teacher- the will be other grown ups in the class too.

[Missunreasonable]

Hak- do most state schools have more than one adult in the class at ks2 because the ones that I know of only have Assistants in ks1.
The state school that my son used to Attend had classes of 30 in ks2 but only the teacher in the class. The ks2 dept did have one teaching assistant to share amongst the classes but she was mainly used to cover PPA time and when class teachers were at meetings or on training. I remember one week my son had the ks2 TA full time for 4 days without any qualified teachers being present. I did question the legality of this arrangement (to myself) but didn't dwell on it because we had already decided to move to a prep school.