What are the general advantages of private over state primary education? How do we choose?

[cakesonatrain]

DS is 3 so school applications are obviously in mine and DH's minds. We are moving house soon, and the new area has excellent state primaries, and grammar schools. We can afford to go private for primary (the school we're considering will cost a smidge less than nursery fees).
Obviously every individual school is different and has different pros and cons. But are there any generally acknowledged benefits of a small private primary?
I think what I want to understand is, what would we actually be buying for our 2 grand a term or whatever it is, over and above/different from what the children would get from the excellent state school?

I know we need to go and visit the schools, but obviously we can't do that right now. What sorts of things should we be looking for/asking about when we do visit?

Can you give us any help in deciding? DH is very pro-private, my position is something like "I'm happy to spend the money if we are really buying an advantage and significantly better experience for our children, but imagine what we could do with that sort of money if we decided not to spend it on school fees"

[MaryWestmacott]

Op, when people say you'd be better doing state at primary then private at secondary if your dc won't get into the grammar, that does rather depend on the type of local private school. I live in an area with 11+, but also the only day private schools are very, very academic, put bluntly, if a child can't get into the super selective grammar, they've no hope of passing the entrance exam for the private secondary schools. And if you are then talking boarding schools in a non-commutable distance, that's a big difference again!

Look at the last (And therefore most expensive) years fees for the private school and see what they offer.

If you work full time, advantages can include wrap around care free on site (which can mean the price difference suddenly isn't all that big!), after school clubs and classes on site (eg most state schools here don't do swimming lessons in infants, most private do, if you don't work full time then you could take your dc to the leisure centre for the lessons in the evening, if you work and your dc are in childcare, then that's not an option, same for music lessons).

Look round the private schools in your area, look at the added value and added options, many people go the other option of state school and a nanny doing the running around to afterschool clubs and classes, but this can be more expensive than private for 1child. (We're using state, but I'm a sahm with 2dcs, if we hadn't had dc2, I think we'd have gone the private and me work full time option)

Also worth considering most preps do an intake at 7, you could start your dc in state and then if the logistics and after school clubs become an issue, move then.

[cakesonatrain]

Yes, I had considered that the longer holidays = more expense/hassle.

This thread seems to suggest that private education can be an excellent choice, but that going private for primary only isn't the best plan?

[MaryWestmacott]

Oh and as all the private preps around here are geared towards the working parents, they have holiday clubs on site, again, worth asking when you do the tours.

[JimBobplusasprog]

I have one at state primary and one going to a prep school.

Advantages of prep:

More sport - and it's actually rugby cricket hockey and football rather than ambling round the playground doing loosely defined pe

Nicer looking uniform. Although it does cost about £500 more to kit ds1 out than ds2

Better music provision in school. Although for my child at the state school we have access to fantastic music provision out of school and it was about a third of the price.

Regular feedback on progress - a report card every few weeks whereas for ds2 we get one once a year.

Advantages of state: not spending 10k pa on fees means that we can afford the extra curricular activities ds2 wants. We can find excellent sport or music or drama education out of school and do this to suit ds2s needs.

The uniform is more practical.

He's part of the local community and he is in a class with kids whose parents are doctors and cleaners and secretaries and farm workers and IT consultants and bar workers.

Nothing is perfect but both are good. Different things suit different families and sometimes different kids in the same family. Both dss are equally bright academically and we expect both to go to selective secondary schools - hopefully the same one.

[MollyBdenum]

I think it depends so much on the schools. I live in an area with excellent state schools, so the big advantage of private is that if both parents work long hours, then there is both wrap around childcare and a wide range of on-site extra-curricular activities. The other main difference is that there is a lot more money spent on experiences such as theatre workshops and author visits. The children also tend to start learning foreign languages younger, and move earlier to specialist science, although this doesn't seem to lead to a significant difference at secondary level as pupils whomove from state to independent schools aren't at a big disadvantage.

I'd say that at primary level, an private school is probably better if both parents are cash-rich but time-poor, or if the parents don't have a particularly strong educational/cultural background themselves or if you live in an area where is little access to sport/dance/theatre/music/education activities outside school.

But if the local primary school is good, there is a parent who is around from 4pm a couple of days a week and that parent is well enough educated and there are the resources locally to follow up on their child's enthusiasms, then it's a lot of money to spend without much benefit.

[cakesonatrain]

Logistics of before/after school-wise, I'm planning to do my current 3 days' worth of hours over 5 days when the dc are at school (work are happy about this) so I can do all drop-offs and pick-ups myself, and any necessary running around.
And yes I know this means more holiday days to cover.
I would only go back to full-time once the children are old enough to get themselves to/from school.

[cakesonatrain]

So are a lot of the private advantages not actually classroom-based? The extra-curricular activities are mentioned a lot.

JimBob, can I ask why you chose to send one private and one to state school?

[Missunreasonable]

I don't think anybody else can really answer about the advantages of private and state school because different families and different children find different aspects advantageous / more suitable. Different schools within both sectors also have big differences.
You need to visit the private schools that you have in mind and then visit the state school that you child is likely to be allocated and then decide what suits your child and family the best.
If you can't decide which option is best then it might be better to choose the state school as it will most likely be easier to get an available space in a private school than in a state school if you want to swap at a later stage if things are not as you imagined. Schools in many areas of the North West are oversubscribed and moving to state at a later stage might leave your options very limited.
Given that you live in the North West and are talking about school fees of £2k per term (normal fee level in the North West)I have a reasonable idea of which senior grammar schools you are talking about. I think you really need to consider what you will do if those grammar schools are not grammar schools in 8 years time or if your children do not obtain a place as competition is very fierce if you don't live within the catchment area (still fierce for those in catchment, but not as fierce as out of catchment).
Do you live within the catchment area for the grammar schools?

[cakesonatrain]

Yes, in catchment for the boys and girls grammars.
Do you know something about them becoming not-grammar?

[BravePotato]

It all depends on the individusl school, we started at a lovely state primary, but after 3 years pulled our children out and moved them to a private school.

The private school has been much better in every way, wish I had started them there in yR.

The lical primary was good (supposedly) but the HT was rubbish, and always had bust ups with the staff. An indication of a badly run school are high turnover of staff and pupils. Watch out for that.

The sport, drama and music have been amazing at the private school. One thing we din't like is thst dometims too much pressure us put on the kids (and too much homework)

I hear there are great primaries in England. Sadly ours was a shambles (staff leaving "sick", 10 different supply teachers, no proper replacement, kids are set early on and NO movement between sets (ie you are screwed if you do badly at Sats tests age 6), mixed year classes meaning they did the same history for 2 years in a row, classes of 36, bullying and serious behavioural issues that were not dealt with.

Going back to state for secondary and a but nervous after our awful experience at a "good" school.

[Lonecatwithkitten]

A lot of the advantages I see are unique to the school I choose, but here we go.
Strong science in a a specialist 'junior' science lab all counters right height to enable use of Bunsen burners etc. in junior school. No local state school offered this.
Basic skills in 4 modern languages (Spanish, Italian, French and mandarin) by the end of year 6. Again no local state could offer this.
8am to 6pm wrap around care in term time and holiday club for 11 weeks of school holidays. Whole days are much easier to sort that before and after school care.
Extra curricular activities on site so I didn't have to do ferrying about.
Finally a head who saw mothers working as a good thing, the head of my closest primary regularly expresses that she believes 'mothers should stay home and look after their children'. This head makes it incredibly difficult for families with two working parents to interact with the school and is positively obstructive to anyone else other than parents picking up children.

[JimBobplusasprog]

OP I have one in each sector as ds1 wanted to be a cathedral chorister and ds2 definitely doesn't.

As others have said I don't think you can compare whole sectors you need to look at individual schools and individual children.

[slev]

We had a few reasons for choosing private for DS.

• we are (as someone referred to upthread) cash rich/time poor - both work full time and don't have the time to spend helping DS at home. Nor did we want to organise tutoring to ensure he got into a good secondary - we'd rather he got that education in the classroom. He will definitely go private for secondary so it seemed "safer" to have him in that environment from the outset as the school has those links with the secondaries and teaches the children the skills they need to pass the entrance exams.
  
  
• DS is bright but easily distracted. Who knows if that will continue as he gets older but he's better being in a smaller class where he's engaged rather than a bigger one where he'll disappear into his own world.
  
  

• the extra-curricular activities offered by the school - sport, drama, music etc. We could do all these out of school, but again, we only have the weekends to spend time with him and would rather that were family time rather than ferrying him from class to class (unless he develops a particular passion for one of those, which would be different)
  

One thing though (and maybe not relevant in your case) - don't assume private means wrap-around care. Our school doesn't have it as there's no demand for it - most of the mums don't work (sweeping statement but true - there are only 4 working mums in our year). So we've had to go down the childminder/nanny route which adds more expense.

But as everyone said, visit the schools and make your mind up from there. You'll never know if you've done the right thing or not but our view was that we'd rather spend the money than look back and wish we had.

[cakesonatrain]

I think your last sentence sums it up, slev.
DH is so pro-private, so if we do stick with the good state schools, and the dc have any bad experience, I'll be thinking "it's my fault for not agreeing to go private" and worry that DH was blaming me too :(

[hardestdecisionever]

We had our Ds in state primary to start with but moved to private in juniors. The change in our Ds was remarkable and private was worth every penny. It wasn't a big prestigious prep school it was a local, average size (40 per year) prep with excellent facilities. The well rounded, confident and polite young boy we had at the end of y6 was definately worth the expense. We found that as everything was on site for them, eg swimming pool, large fields, specialist teachers, it meant that they could get so much into their school day as they didn't have to travel anywhere for anything. Our Ds absoltuely loved school and although we got a well rounded and confident individual the school also allowed them all still to be children. If we did it again we would go private agian without any question. I believe the good start to his education will hold him in good stead for the rest of his education. Ds is now off to state grammar school starting in Sep.

[Sunflower123456]

The quality of private schools ranges from poor to excellent, and it's impossible to to tell from the outside even after visiting them. eg you won't know if the HT and teaches are good or bad by their smiley faces on an open day visit. We found facilities of the NGHS (a GDST school) to be better than a good state school, so we sent our daughter there. However, we found the HT didn't care when our daughter was harmed so we sent her to an outstanding state school where the facilities were even better. The HT and teachers were better too, as they shown that they cared. Incidentally a GDST school changed from private to a free but still selective academy in 2010 is only rated as 'good' by ofted in 2013.

Someone had already mentioned that private school uniforms are expensive. We found even a small enprint size class photo taken by a teacher was £25, which we didn't buy because it's a rip off. For £12, we bought a professionally produced large stretched class photo and two photo book marks from her new state school.

If money is no issue, then send your children to a private school. Whether it's value for ~£140,000 (plus other fees) from 4 - 18 per child is highly debatable.

It is untrue that a child would always do better by going to private school. You shouldn't compare private and state school results, because private schools only accept brighter children. Also, don't assume that you won't have to supervise or educate your children at home after sending them to a private school.

We found it's better to send our daughter to a good state school and then give her plenty of sports activities, home work and encouragements from ourselves.

[wendycj]

I am ethically and politically opposed to private education. I think it breeds a sense of unthinking entitlement and a lack of understanding of the difficulties faced by others. I have never seen any evidence that private primaries give a huge advantage to kids. As others have said the home environment is the main influence. I would say good or even average state primaries would give your child more exposure to a wider range of children and experiences, which I consider very important and I'm very grateful for all the benefits I gained from being state educated.

[MMmomKK]

Wendycj - using your logic, living in a wealthy Western society breeds a lack of understanding of the difficulties faced by others. School system reflects the society structure and it is up to the parents to teach their children values they believe in.

Banning private and mixing all the kids up won't solve they problem. Kids would end up in cliques by class/wealth/ethnicity/etc.

Just this Xmas I was talking to an extended family member in South Africa who is in a state high school. I asked her if in her school kids mix between wealth/race lines. Naively, I thought they would as kids are kids. But no - wealthy(=white) kids didn't mix with poorer black kids. When I asked why - she said "they are not like us". I was shocked.

[nlondondad]

I think that you should look at all the schools in the neighbourhood: that you have the means to pay for private increases your choice beyond those who have not. I agree that two thousand a term for a private school sounds low to me, and I would advise you to double check the fees situation. Here, in London, which is dear I admit, for most things, a private primary school could be expected to cost 14 thousand a year minimum.

Do check that it is two thousand a term, and so six thousand a year in total, and not actually six thousand a term! I stress this because six thousand a year is about what a state school gets per pupil, from the government these days! So, in general privates charge more so as to be able to afford more expensive facilities and more staff...

[Missunreasonable]

^Yes, in catchment for the boys and girls grammars.
Do you know something about them becoming not-grammar?^

There are constant debates about whether grammar schools should be abolished. I think they will still be around in a decade (the boys school has existed for 100 years), but we can never foresee that far ahead in education as things are constantly changing. A decade ago we wouldn't have imagined having free schools but now we have lots of them.
I think when you are looking at a long term plan it makes sense to consider all of the 'what if' scenarios.
What if the grammars don't exist or change their admission criteria? Would you do private senior? There are lots of good independents in the region but currently cost around £11k pa
What if you didn't get places at the grammar (seven/ right fighting for every place this year).
In your area (if bit is the catchment I think) there are some very good state primaries. Would it be a good idea to go state and save money for private senior / university?

[Missunreasonable]

nlondondad between £2k and £2.5 k per term is the norm for private prep in the north West. State schools up here don't get £6k per year, they get around two thirds of that figure.
Private senior schools in the North West average £3.5 k- £4k per term (£11k per annul of average).
School fees in the North West are low in comparison to the south.

[Missunreasonable]

Sorry about the typos, I have fat fingers.

[MaryWestmacott]

Wendy - that's all good and well, but with catchements of less than 0.5miles, the state schools round here hardly are a great exposure of a variety of different backgrounds to small DCs! We are using a state school, it's one that's walking distance to our house, but outside of London, those catchements are unlikely to have a wide range of incomes in such a limited geographical area - I believe there's less than 20 children in the whole of the school who are entitled to the pupil premium, it's a 3 form entry school.

[mandy214]

I think I live locally and I agree that you need to visit the schools. If you are talking private for primary, if I'm in the right area, you have the choice of boys only and mixed. I think that is also a factor as opposed to state v private especially as you have a boy. If you are in catchment of the grammar schools you are also in catchment for outstanding state primaries. I genuinely think that some of the local state primaries are held in higher regard than some of the preps. I think some of the arguments about wrap-around / extra curricular activities also don't apply in this particular area - they're available at both the state and private schools.

I think historically in this area the difference has been that the preps can tutor (quite intensively) for the entrance exams which the state schools haven't been able to compete with. Certainly in the last year both grammars have tried to move away from their existing exam format in order to become "tutor-proof" - certainly the boys school has found that pupils have struggled because they don't have the skills to learn independently / be self motivated. I think things will definitely change before your DS gets there. I think too that the local state schools are doing more (practice papers, coaching) to level the playing field. So no, by the time your DS comes to consider secondary school, I don't anticipate a private education will have given him much of an advantage over the education he'd get at one of the state schools. I also think that its wrong to assume that because you as parents might be in the top 5%, he will be, and therefore he'll get a place. The vast majority of families in the area are professional families who probably all think they're in the same boat too. I think the grammars are actually more difficult to get into than some of the private grammar schools - 1800 sat the exam last year I think for 180 places.

So after that long winded response (sorry!), it comes down to your preference, knowing your son and seeing which school will be the best environment for him with your personal / family circumstances.