So long St. Mediocre

[PastSellByDate]

Well it is an end of an era.

I joined MN in 2010 because we'd had about 6 months of trying to get help from the school with our struggling DD1 (May Y2 - slow reader/ barely able to add to 20/ unable to subtract) and the school had pretty much repeatedly told DH & I our expectations were too high - topping it off with the dreadful HT stating:

'What you need to understand Mrs. PSBD, is your DD1 just isn't that bright'.

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Do I have issues? Oh boy do I ever!

Have I lost faith in state education - totally!

Low brow

Uninspired

Chaotic

doesn't sum it up.

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But here on MN - I have found help. Many teachers & parents have made brilliant suggestions - leading to great websites/ resources/ ideas which have really helped.

DD1 finished Y2 KS1 SATs at NC L1 across the board. She finished Y6 KS2 SATs at NC L5/6. That would never have happened without Mumsnet members answering my questions/ giving their advice to help me help my DD1.

My advice to any who feel in their gut that something is amiss/ the school just isn't doing enough - stick to your guns.

Battling a school isn't easy - and I wouldn't advise it. But know that you can do more at home. The internet hosts a wealth of resources that can really make a difference and MN is brilliant as a place to come and moan/ rant/ scream HELP!!!!!!!!!!! On MN you can vent your anger (which is useful) - and get some positive help.

I know I've had my tiffs with some on PRIMARY TALK over the years - but part of that is that we parents only experience the education system in our small little corners of the UK. What happens in NI/ Wales/ Scotland or England - or even within cities - can be night and day to each other.

I think as parents we need to push for more consistency.

Just as we would expect a medical professional to handle notification of cancer with seriousness and compassion - and would understandably expect information to help us digest the diagnosis and explain our next options...

We need teachers to move toward that kind of professionalism - to be able to tell a parent/ agree with a parent that their child is struggling and provide useful guidance on what to do next.

Leaving a parent to it - is in no way 'professional'.

I take the point that not all parents will take so much interest - but I suspect more parents care about their child's education than teaching professionals give us credit for - and most parents - if wisely directed to useful resources/ methods/ techniques - will follow that guidance and can be a real asset to teachers - putting in those extra hours at home - and may just turn a struggling pupil into a successful one!

Thanks & happy summer everybody!

PSBD

[RaisinBoys]

Mimi Do you know the starting points of these children?

A little knowledge really is a dangerous thing!

They let these 4 years old play outside instead of sitting them down to write their names over and over again? They let them do role play instead of penmanship? Bloody hell! Sack those teachers!

My son learned to write his name in sand and water and mud. Then he used chalk on the playground. Then he used macaroni to form letters. He uses a pen now but he is in y6!

No wonder some teachers don't want parents helpers in class. Can't say I blame them.

[Jinsei]

On the state private difference there have been threads on mumsnet on this. I thought we had all established it was flawed?

Had we? I have seen some posters assert that the research is flawed, but I haven't seen anything that actually demonstrates this. Can you link to the thread, please?

I suppose it's natural that those who have spent thousands of pounds on a private education will be heavily invested in the view that private is better than anything that the state can provide, but wanting that to be true doesn't necessarily make it so.

Are the HEFCE stats that you've quoted controlled for social class and economic background, xenia?

[Mimilicious2014]

I totally agree with you Janeparker. With my recent experience at this school, I declined the offer my daughter got for reception in September and enrolled her at an independent school in my area. Although this is going to be extremely hard financially, I feel like I don't have a choice right now.

[Toomanyhouseguests]

Broadly, state schools are good. Unfortunately, they aren't consistently good, so in a good system overall you have a large group- I'd say 20%- who do have a legitimate gripe.

[Toomanyhouseguests]

Just wondering, seriously, if private isn't better, why do people get het up about private schools?

[mrz]

Private schools can offer other advantages - networking /knowing the right people

[Mimilicious2014]

Raisinboys I do not know what you mean by starting point. First of all, I am in favour of children using macaroni to form letters and all that. However, a child spending the whole day in the patio, with the teacher not knowing which children are in the shed area/patio/dressing up is shocking.
I never suggested pinning them down and drilling them in writing their names/penmanship at all. I only said they could spend a little time(5-10 mins)learning to hold a pencil or write their names or learn to write letters.
When they are out there in the patio unsupervised, I do not believe that they are writing their names/letters in the mud/water/air. Most times it is chaotic.
No wonder some teachers do not want parent helper in their classroom.

[RaisinBoys]

Yes and the same more than applies in the independent sector Toomany. You do don't have to go too far to find a poor prep school.

From this thread the only people getting "het up" about private schools are those paying for it. Others are just linking to published sources of evidence.

[mrz]

Starting point - many of our pupils arrive with little or no spoken language and poor physical skills

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10974849/Many-children-unable-to-hold-a-pencil-or-sit-still-at-five.html

if that is their starting point then mastering writing takes longer but I do agree it needs to be taught not left to chance.

[RaisinBoys]

Mimi "starting point"...where a child's development is upon entry to school. Some children entering reception have never been read to, never held a book, cannot toilet themselves, do not know what to do with a crayon, cannot sit for a minute to listen to a story. Their home lives are chaotic.

The play you are so contemptuous of is carefully planned and organised by trained professionals to develop the children in all areas of the early year's curriculum so that they are ready for more formal learning later on.

It is not a free for all and children aren't left unsupervised all day as you claim. That is just ludicrous and you know it. Great capital on MN though!

As an aside I said "sitting down" not " pinning down".

[Toomanyhouseguests]

I am sure you are right RaisinBoys. I can think of a couple of private schools within a few miles of my house that I think would be of poorer quality than my children's local state school.

[tenderbuttons]

Mrz - I absolutely don't dispute that research at all. But what it can't tell you is about the children who didn't get the chance to go to university at all because they dropped out/weren't picked up on as bright/or whatever.

The other thing that is implied by the research, too, is that if you take two students of equal ability (as defined by their university results), then the one from a private school will have got better A Level and GCSE grades. Which isn't a great argument against private schools.

And re the second link - yes, this is a sad state of affairs, and it must be very very hard for teachers. But it's also then causes problems when you have children coming into the state system at such very different levels, and, again, perhaps explains why some people choose private. Not because they don't want their children mixing with them, but because they quiet ones who can hold a pencil and write their names don't end up getting much of the attention or teaching (and yes, they do in a good school, I know, but sadly this isn't the universal state of things)

[mrz]

Are you assuming that no children drop out of independent schools?

The other thing that is implied by the research, too, is that if you take two students of equal ability (as defined by their university results), then the one from a private school will have got better A Level and GCSE grades. Which isn't a great argument against private schools.

Firstly who is arguing against private schools?

Secondly I think you've got your results reversed -
"students from state schools out perform those from private ones admitted with the same A level grades"

"The Institute of Fiscal Studies (2011) found a school’s academic achievement is governed by the ability range of its intake. Many private schools tend to be highly selective so it’s hardly surprising their headline results would be better than non-selective schools with the full ability range or one skewed to the bottom of the ability range."

[IsItMeOr]

Interesting where this thread has gone. But I'm intrigued - what does a person in their 20s do that earns them a salary of £104k per year?

I feel I must be in the wrong line of work!

[spanieleyes]

what does a person in their 20s do that earns them a salary of £104k per year?

Well, they don't teach, that's for sure!

[tenderbuttons]

No that's a fair point about dropping out, and without that data it's not really possible to tell.

But no, I don't have my results reversed, I am just arguing back from the results the other way around.

Let's say for the sake of argument that a degree is a good measure of ability. So two students who both get a first or a 2:1 can be said to be of similar ability (which is the assumption behind the original research).

So if state school students who get a 2:1 do so with lower A Level grades than their private school counterparts, then the logical conclusion is that, had they been taught in the same way as their private school counterparts, they would have achieved better grades in A Levels and GCSEs.

I don't like that conclusion, and obviously there are huge variations within the state and private sector, but it's still true.

The selectivity is a red herring if you are comparing students of 'like' ability as this study implies they are.

[mrz]

So if state school students who get a 2:1 do so with lower A Level grades than their private school counterparts, but that isn't what the report says ... students start out with the same A level grades on entry but the state educated pupils obtain higher degrees ...

[IsItMeOr]

spaniel

[teacherwith2kids]

Mrz, but tender's conclusion is an absolutely logical deduction from the same data.

Say 2 students get 1st class degrees. The state schooled one has ABB at A-level, the private schooled on AAA.

If the 1st class degree is a true reflection of 'actual ability', then the private school enabled the student to get better A-level results than the state school pupil of equivalent ability - so either the private school enabled their pupil to 'overperform', or the state school allowed their pupil to 'underperform' relative to their actual ability.

It is exactly the same as saying that the state school pupil above (ABB) got a better degree than the private school pupil with ABB [who might only have got a 2:1]. At A-level, pupils of the same potential in terms of their dgree results did slightly worse in terms of A-levels if at sate school htan they did at private school. It may not be the way the data is STATED, but it is an entirely logical hypothesis based on that data.

[mrz]

It's a hypothesis but not explored by the actual research so we can't make assumptions

[Bonsoir]

Exam results (be they GCSEs, A-levels, IB, degree) are an incomplete and partial measure of a child's educational attainment and personal achievements.

We spend a lot of money on education (school fees are just the beginning). We don't expect our DCs' accomplishments to be fully reflected in their (excellent) public examination results. Parents who buy private education and extra educational opportunity for their DC are not doing so merely to ensure A*s and Firsts. The studies that compare examination outcomes of state and private education and conclude that private adds no real advantage fail to take this into account.

[AmberTheCat]

PSBD, I have a lot of respect for the way you get under the skin of school data, but please, please don't use your experience of one school to damn the whole of state education. It only ends up with Jane making her usual even more sweeping statements, and it's hard for a thread to recover after that...

[Retropear]

Amber I wouldn't worry even those of us with school issues know JP is talking the upmost tosh.

Said post is ludicrous and it just makes her look a tad unhinged,nobody is going to write off the entire state sector on the basis of that.

[Mimilicious2014]

Raisinboys, in this class that I volunteered for a term, I witnessed a lot and a lot of unsupervised, unorganised play. Like I said earlier, I am all for learning through play but when it's play without really achieving anything at the end of the day, it makes no sense. I understand children come from all sorts of background however, they are in school to learn and develop in different areas. They should get the opportunity to read (especially as some may not have seen a book before reception), write and prepare for future education. I must say that I was very disappointed that at the end of reception, a lot of children could not write their names.
This is an affluent area, all the children in this class spoke fluent English. Just one child had a speech issue.

[Soveryupset]

Parents who buy private education and extra educational opportunity for their DC are not doing so merely to ensure As and Firsts. The studies that compare examination outcomes of state and private education and conclude that private adds no real advantage fail to take this into account*

I only truly understood this once my children went to a very good academic private school - it wasn't all about their (excellent) teaching of English and maths, but much more and what I would call a truly all round education. Of course you can try and supplement this at home, but for me there just were not enough hours in the day..

Also, and this is probably a minor point for those with very confident children - my DD1 gained buckets of confidence - something I didn't manage to give her myself despite the zillions of things we did with her.

Her school gave her confidence and to this day I have no idea what they did to manage it so well, but she went from someone who couldn't say hello without blushing to someone who could look at a stranger straight in the eye and ask for directions/food/etc..the change was remarkable.