So long St. Mediocre

[PastSellByDate]

Well it is an end of an era.

I joined MN in 2010 because we'd had about 6 months of trying to get help from the school with our struggling DD1 (May Y2 - slow reader/ barely able to add to 20/ unable to subtract) and the school had pretty much repeatedly told DH & I our expectations were too high - topping it off with the dreadful HT stating:

'What you need to understand Mrs. PSBD, is your DD1 just isn't that bright'.

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Do I have issues? Oh boy do I ever!

Have I lost faith in state education - totally!

Low brow

Uninspired

Chaotic

doesn't sum it up.

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But here on MN - I have found help. Many teachers & parents have made brilliant suggestions - leading to great websites/ resources/ ideas which have really helped.

DD1 finished Y2 KS1 SATs at NC L1 across the board. She finished Y6 KS2 SATs at NC L5/6. That would never have happened without Mumsnet members answering my questions/ giving their advice to help me help my DD1.

My advice to any who feel in their gut that something is amiss/ the school just isn't doing enough - stick to your guns.

Battling a school isn't easy - and I wouldn't advise it. But know that you can do more at home. The internet hosts a wealth of resources that can really make a difference and MN is brilliant as a place to come and moan/ rant/ scream HELP!!!!!!!!!!! On MN you can vent your anger (which is useful) - and get some positive help.

I know I've had my tiffs with some on PRIMARY TALK over the years - but part of that is that we parents only experience the education system in our small little corners of the UK. What happens in NI/ Wales/ Scotland or England - or even within cities - can be night and day to each other.

I think as parents we need to push for more consistency.

Just as we would expect a medical professional to handle notification of cancer with seriousness and compassion - and would understandably expect information to help us digest the diagnosis and explain our next options...

We need teachers to move toward that kind of professionalism - to be able to tell a parent/ agree with a parent that their child is struggling and provide useful guidance on what to do next.

Leaving a parent to it - is in no way 'professional'.

I take the point that not all parents will take so much interest - but I suspect more parents care about their child's education than teaching professionals give us credit for - and most parents - if wisely directed to useful resources/ methods/ techniques - will follow that guidance and can be a real asset to teachers - putting in those extra hours at home - and may just turn a struggling pupil into a successful one!

Thanks & happy summer everybody!

PSBD

[Retropear]

Blimey what bollocks JP.

My kids go to a school with a tendency towards mediocracy at times.All 3 of mine however are doing far better than friends in private we know,will leave with 5s or 6s and I'm a lowly sahm to boot.

Private schools vary as do state schools, kids and parents.

Parents can do a lot,the op has shown us that.We all have the info at our fingertips these days.

Friends I have teaching in the private sector say teaching isn't better in private however it's the extra curricular stuff and contacts in secondary that help.I can give them experiences,help them to be fighting fit when applying to uni and hopefully in time the old boy network will be gradually eroded.

[PastSellByDate]

Dear all:

Lots of comments and I'm still working my way through....

For the 'why didn't you move camp' - DH was put on notification of potential redundancy before we could sell our house in Y3 - and oddly enough banks don't give mortgages to people in such situations. In late Y5 he found he had retained his job - we then moved. Moving has been about getting DD1 into a better catchment for senior school - our two nearest options from the old house were in special measures. We were able to move DD2 to a new primary - which I have repeatedly said is excellent - DD2 is in Y4 and more or less doing the same work as DD1 in Y6.

For those on 'generalisation' - I think I'm pretty clear that the teaching 'issues' were St. Mediocres. What I'm asking for though (apologies to those facing poor prognoses with bowel cancer/ etc....) - is like a doctor who will tell you how you're doing/ who will discuss what it means or give you a pamphlet/ who will go through your options (and by the way with a B-I-L with liver cancer and an Uncle who died of lung cancer - there are options even if terminal - chemo or not?/ hospice?/ getting finances & wills in order/ alternative remedies/ one last holiday/ a party before you tell friends & family/ etc... - all of which were discussed with doctors/ McMillan nurses) - I'd like to move to a sate of play where whatever corner of primary education you are in - as a parent you're told early of a problem/ issue/ maybe even talent, you're given information on what that means and you're given some advice on what you can do to help.

For those that feel most parents can't do this kind of thing at home - if you have £14.99 a month to spare or thereabouts - an on-line maths tutorial can be a huge help (DD1 completed Mathsfactor arithmetic school - started Y2 - finished early Y6 and in Y6 DD1 completed Mathsfactor algebra school just before KS2 SATs.

I've written a lot about what else we've done with reading/ writing - but basically more books of better quality read at home. Writing letters/ keeping diary.

11+ workbooks were the real eye opener - and by working our way through them slowly throughout Y5/ summer before Y6 & 11+ exam - especially comprehension tasks - DD1 improved beyond recognition during Y5. Because we had no homework at all for first two terms and intermittent homework in 3rd term - we had a lot of spare time to devote to this - putting in about 2 hours a week on 11+ workbooks (often done in snatches of time before lessons/ whilst waiting for sibling/ whilst waiting for bath) + our normal routine since end Y2 of 1 hour Mathsfactor (in Y5 we added L5 My Maths tasks) & 1 - 2 hours reading more challenging children's fiction (usually done in evenings before bed - I'd read with DD1 maybe 2-3 times a week discussing vocabulary/ story).

For us it was just a matter of determining to organise our routine around putting in the time on this for DD1. I went part-time in Y3 - and basically made that happen.

[PastSellByDate]

Can I add the timings on 11+ bit are over one week.

Having now read through all posts (and gosh what a variety) -

first I should apologise if the impression was I was saying all schools/ teachers are rubbish.

My loss of faith in the state sector - is surely somebody somewhere should be picking up on the fact that this school which regularly got children to NC L4 (90% or better) in the late 90s/ early naughties - now struggles to achieve 70% - something has gone horribly wrong.

I also think this is as much a plea to regulators: Local Education Authority/ OFSTED/ DofE as teachers.

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I'm not clear where some posting got that I said teachers were liars or cheats. I don't think the problems at St. Mediocre are about lying/ cheating - it's more about what people are willing to do.

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I chose to rename our school St. Mediocre purposely

Mediocrity is defined as:

of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad;
barely adequate

It's the just do enough/ just get them over that L4 threshold mentality - that is my 'issue'.

As a parent - I've no way of understanding whether that is SMT/ teachers/ subject leads/ culture

personally I think it's a mixture of it all.

[mrz]

Perhaps you missed this Jane

"Two new reports confirm that state school pupils outperform independent ones at university"

"State school pupils outperform privately-educated pupils with the same A levels at university – that was the conclusion of two university internal reports discovered by the Guardian using the Freedom of Information Act."

(Oxford- Brookes/Cardiff/Sutton Trust)
and

OECD found that UK private schools outperformed state schools in the 2009 PISA reading tests however the situation was reversed when socio-economic background was taken into account. UK state schools outperformed private ones.

[isthisanacidtest]

PastSellByDate - as someone who has a family member dying RIGHT NOW from terminal cancer, I am astounded that you cannot see the difference with the cancer analogy. It is honestly not the same at all.

And with all due respect, an uncle and a BIL is not the same as a father. Or a child.

It may be one of those things you won't get until you go through it though, and if that is the case, I fervently hope you never find out just how offensive and wrong your insistence that it is the same is.

[PastSellByDate]

isthisanacidtest:

I totally get that you are offended by the analogy (agree it was extreme) and that you personally are going through a difficult time just now - but there are many types of cancer and not all cancers automatically are terminal - many people have cancer with good outcomes for survival (e.g. breast cancer with over 80% alive post diagnosis: source: www.breastcancercampaign.org/about-breast-cancer/breast-cancer-statistics?gclid=CKX6soCq078CFfOhtAodIC4AuQ).

What I'm trying to say is that process of talking to parents about their child's performance (schools handle thousands of low ability/ average ability/ high ability pupils year after year - and frequently encounter similar problems year after year) can be handled in much the same way medical staff (and I'm speaking from experience) are trained to handle informing patient of test results/ discussing meaning/ discussing treatment options/ discussing post-operative recovery options/ physiotherapy options/ etc....

I think if you're in the process of losing a child to cancer right now or have recently suffered such a loss - I can understand what I've said appears glib or callous - but I think even in your situation the doctors and nurses handling it have talked to you about the symptoms/ testing options/ diagnosis/ care options/ advice on support groups for loved ones/ etc...)

I would describe that process of keeping you informed/ explaining what is going on/ discussing options/ discussing means of support as 'being professional'

I hope the medical staff you've worked with have behaved that way - as they did with my loved ones - and that is the comparison I wish to make.

what I'm trying to ask is why can't teachers also behave in a similar way (I hope you now can at least understand where the analogy is coming from - even if for you it was a painful reminder of your situation).

[isthisanacidtest]

PastSellByDate - as I said, and I will say again, I hope and pray to all the Gods in creation you never have to find out exactly why your analogy is so offensive.

You continuing to try to justify it is incredibly hurtful and rubbing salt in an open wound.

On that note, I will leave the thread and wish you well.

[Cherrypi]

The poor secondary teachers. At least there's more of them to share the load. Though you'll probably find the weakest and bully them.

[PenelopePitstops]

Quick, you put the budget problems better than I ever could.

Teachers are often doing their best in difficult circumstances. We do give feedback and report on achievement. We are happy to support and give ideas for home support.

Teaching approx 200 pupils per week means I cannot physically provide weekly feedback to each parent. Supporting each child in the way you describe would be impossible.

[PastSellByDate]

As I said - it was a glib comparison (plucked out of the air from recent experience of medical staff relating a diagnosis and options)

Acid you're clearly very upset - I agree you should be with your child right now rather than on Mumsnet.

There's absolutely nothing to say to a parent in such a situation - and I think you know that and that I couldn't possibly be posting specifically about you but generally about a process (frequent occuring in medicine) of relating diagnosis/ treatment options/ ways forward.

I accept sometimes it is just bad news - but I think you can tell from my posts that I was never thinking any child is ever 'terminal'/ 'hopeless' in an educational sense.

I'm seriously worried about you - and right now may not be the time - but there are people out there who can help: www.macmillan.org.uk/HowWeCanHelp/Bereavement/Bereavement.aspx

[spanieleyes]

I'm not clear where some posting got that I said teachers were liars or cheats. I don't think the problems at St. Mediocre are about lying/ cheating - it's more about what people are willing to do.

You have said that the teachers at ST Mediocre photocopy SATS papers before sending them off for marking-which is cheating. They are then clearly lying when they sign the School declaration which states that no maladministration has taken place.
I would find that offensive.

[isthisanacidtest]

Fuck it I'm going to bite. You sound utterly patronising and up yourself and really really really superior and smug.

It's my father.

Not a child.

You have put doctors and cancer diagnosis and how it's handled up there as some sort of gold standard.

Whilst that may well be your experience, it has certainly not been ours as a family. Without going into all the gory and unpleasant details, there is a formal complaint underway. And my father has not been treated properly, signs were missed, and information was not communicated in a caring or professional way. Diagnostic tests that were promised were not done, and his care has been shambolic.

So, my point is that it is entirely possible for cancer patients to be treated like crap and for families (like me and mine) to have to fight tooth and nail for dignity for our loved ones.

But to compare what we have had to do and go through for my dad to a school that is not up to scratch is really really not the same at all. And the reason I know is because I am currently going through it with my dad. And it has not been good. But it is not even remotely on the same planet as a failing school.

After all. Your child is not going to die from the school's incompetence. My father will.

[isthisanacidtest]

And. You can do things to improve the outcome for your child.

I can do precisely fuck all to improve the outcome for my dad.

Can you honestly not see the difference?

[Wellthen]

Your choice of cancer as a diagnosis was just stupid and over dramatic. But, offense aside, it is also not apt.

As I said in a previous post, diagnosing a disease is a world away from saying that a child has problem.
You don't say whether your daughter has a diagnosable difficulty. If not, how do you expect teachers to metaphorically 'give you a pamplet'?
Even if she has been diagnosed with say, dyslexia, it is not actually an expectation of school that they tell you how to help. This is good practice yes but ultimately the school make adjustments for your child and continue with their teaching. What you do with your child is up to you.

You seem to be confusing schools with learning difficulty centres.

Finally, as many many have said, it is absolutely possible that the school are as bad as you say and have ignored your daughter's difficulties and been rude and lazy.

But when you say things like 'refused to recognise her difficulties', the teachers can't help but picture the parents they have dealt with you said similar things about a child who really did not have any sen. Year after year teachers tell this parent that, whilst their child is not a high achiever, they are progressing steadily and have no need for an iep and yet year after this parent disagrees and tells the whole playground how bad the school is.

Someone who is told they do not have cancer and yet insists they do would probably be treated for munchausen's.

Your posts make you sound like you have worked in schools which is misleading and unfair for new posters. You also seem to know an incredible amount about St mediocre for parent. How do you know about the sats papers? Have you reported this?

What you are seeing here is the response to post after post of condescending crap.

[JaneParker]

mrz, that has been debated on mumsnet and if you look behind the data of the survey it does not stack up. Private school pupils do better at just about all stages in life. However most mothers pick such low paid work they cannot afford to pay them and plenty are happy with state schools so that is fine. If you like state schools use them. If you don't then earn enough to pay fees. Each to their own. I have been very happy with that for which I've paid.

[mrz]

So you dispute the research from Oxford and Cardiff and the Sutton Trust along with the OECD data?

[insanityscratching]

Ds and dn were born eight days apart. Dn went to private school from four and scraped 2 poor A level passes and is currently on an apprenticeship that he could have started at sixteen but started at 19 as it took him an extra year to get the two D's and so doesn't even earn minimum wage. Ds went to the local state schools he has a management position in Local Government who are funding his masters.
Dn was not well served by his three private schools, they held his hand but they did not address his difficulties nor were they able to access the support of the ed psych and OT who dn's first state primary wanted to refer him to within days of starting nursery.
Dsil spent a fortune to be reassured dn was doing well, FFS they were looking around St Andrews the year he failed his first AS levels because they were led to believe dn would easily meet entry requirements even though there was no comparison with the work ds was doing in a bog standard state comp.
In some respects state schools are superior particularly when it comes to SEN and I say that as a parent who has a son in an independent specialist school who state schools provided incredible support to for many years with a budget of probably 25% of the £60k the LA are currently funding.

[Jinsei]

So you dispute the research from Oxford and Cardiff and the Sutton Trust along with the OECD data?

mrz, perhaps xenia's superior private education means that she doesn't need to rely on boring things like data and academic research to back up her judgements.

[mrz]

perhaps I imagine it's a shock to discove you paid out all that cash for nothing

[Jinsei]

[RaisinBoys]

PSBD

Look we get it...you had a bad experience with your child's.school. You, though, took the bull by the horns and with enterprise and endeavour turned it around and you compensated for all the failings of this particular school.

This doesn't give you licence to categorize ALL state schools as "uninspiring, low brow and chaotic". Now you can attempt to back-pedal but your opening post is unambiguous.

The cancer analogy is crass and heartless. You eventually apologise but then go on qualify your apology with further reference to cancer treatment and options - you just have to be right don't you? For an apology to be meaningful it should come without the 'but'. 'I'm sorry I hurt you but...' is meaningless.

Your posts to those experiencing the devastation of a cancer diagnosis right now are condescending and offensive and crucially they lack empathy. They display a staggering degree of narcissim.

You seem to have appointed yourself as some sort of expert on state education; this is however a forum and as such is just a collection of anecdotes and personal experiences. You are an expert on your child and her experience only. You cannot extrapolate and pronounce upon state education based on this.

[JaneParker]

(On the state private difference there have been threads on mumsnet on this. I thought we had all established it was flawed?
Also don't forget the update:

"UPDATE 6 JULY 2013

The Telegraph reported the findings of Higher Education Funding Council research into “the degree outcomes and employment circumstances of young UK-domiciled students starting a full-time first degree course in 2006-07 at a higher education institution”. This found that privately-education students were more likely to obtain a first/2:1 degree than state-educated ones. They were also more likely to be in a top graduate job. The latter finding is unsurprising – privately-educated students are more likely to be able to access networks unavailable to state-educated students. The research also made the unsurprising finding that higher tariff points (based on A levels, AS levels and Scottish Highers) translated into a higher quality degree. The research looked at 24,360 students from independent schools, 184,580 from state schools and 16,830 students whose education was “unknown”. Such a large group of “unknown” casts doubt on the research’s conclusions."

I certainly feel it was money well spent. My oldest has just had a good pay rise (in her 20s and now on £104k). I am not saying she would not have done as well as our local comprehensive (34% grades A - C at GCSE) but I doubt it.

I am more than happy to have paid money and continue to pay money for school fees. It is the nicest best thing I have bought ever and no one can take a good education away from a child.
Similarly parents who are delighted with their state schools can go away happy to. Each to their own.

[Mimilicious2014]

I'm sure there are great teachers out there. However there are some that should not be trusted with our children's education.
I have been volunteering in a "very good" local school in my area and was absolutely shocked to see that a lot of children could not write their names and these are children going into year one in September.
I agree that learning through play at reception level is important but from what I have observed, there is too much play. After register and going through the letters they have been doing for the past year, they were allowed to go in the patio, shed area to play and play and play. Some use that as an opportunity to cause chaos.
Surely, as a parent myself I would want to see that the children spend a little time writing(as some cannot hold pencil well, nor write names) and getting them prepared for year 1. Some people will disagree but from what I have witnessed, a lot will go on to struggle in year1 and beyond.
Honestly, there is something not right. I don't think it's just the teachers that are to be blamed. It is hard to work with 30 children of different abilities.

[RaisinBoys]

Jane "you can't take a good education away from a child "

Well of course you can't - goes without saying.

My DS is having a great one...I pay for it too - through my taxes! And DH and I pay loads of those because despite only going to state schools we managed to somehow blag our way into decent paying jobs.

Now just need a government with balls to remove charitable status from independent schools, then you can pay even greater fees and get an even better education. You get what you pay for after all.

[mrz]

JaneParker the update is from earlier this year
www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education/article4035504.ece

"Bahram Bekhradnia, director of the Higher Education Policy Institute, said: "The benefits gained by paying to attend a private school eventually wear off. Independent schools have denied the evidence that state school pupils do better, grade for grade, than their independent school counterparts, but it is there."