Places available for Yr3 not being offered until a no-show in September.....Any advice?

[Looby258]

Hello. I'm a bit new to all this but would really appreciate some wise words! Here we go...!

My daughter has been on the waiting list for a place at our catchment Primary school since the start of last year, when we moved to the area. We are currently second on the waiting list, being both in catchment and with sibling. There has been no movement in Yr2 all year (very unusual) but 2 children are leaving at the end of this summer term to go to: 1) religious school (which starts from Yr3) and 2) local school - they have been commuting 30mins each way since Feb but have new schools for next year.

Our Head (new this year) has said that, despite written confirmation from both sets of parents that they are not returning and will not require their places next year, that she will not offer these places out until they do not physically return in September. We understand that this is technically correct procedure but it seems nonsense.

We feel we are being forced to the Appeal route due to her lack of experience. Last year, when we arrived in this area, my elder daughter was offered the place of the outgoing faith child at the end of June, to start September. Our new Head says the rules have changed but this rule is referenced to Education Regulations 2006....so these rules themselves haven't changed but perhaps the emphasis has? We just don't know....

Her younger sister is also starting this same school in YR in September. We are desperate for her to get in and not have to worry the whole holidays as to whether or not she can start school with her 2 sisters. We are appealing in July but are struggling to understand why the Head/LEA is not being supportive and pre-empting this stressful and ...we feel....unnecessary process.

Any thoughts anyone...? Has anyone else been offered a place now to start in September?

We're finding it very hard to get a straight answer from any direction but have seem some brilliant advice on here. Would be very grateful to hear from you!

It's not that the head is not being supportive. Technically there is no place to offer at the moment - the current pupils are still there. They cannot pre-emptively remove a child from the school roll because they know he or she is off...

Technically 2 other children could move into the area and live nearer to you therefore potentially higher place on waiting list, therefore the place cannot be offered to you until it is actually available.

Even though the other families have written to say they will not be there in September, they will still be on the school's roll until 31st August. There is therefore no space that can actually be offered until the new school year on 1st September.

Once the new term starts the places can be offered to you or to anyone else who may be higher priority for them. But till then there isn't actually a place to be offered. You could only be offered a place now if the other children came off the school roll before the end of this term which obviously isn't going to be the case here.

Thanks for the messages. A lot of 'technically's in there. From a Mums point of view I find it very hard to understand the logic behind it.

Hiccupgirl, can I just ask is it that the 2 leavers can be removed from the roll on 31st August and then places can be offered then? We were told places couldn't be offered until they physically don't show on the first day of term (which is the 4th Sept). If we don't win our Appeal then, providing we don't move any further down the list, then at least 31st August is better than missing the important first few days of school.

Really appreciate the different points of view!

for technically, read "it's the law". So not optional for schools .

" I find it very hard to understand the logic behind it."

The places aren't available right now so they can't be assigned right now. If the alternative schools those children are going to burned down over the summer, they would still be on roll and would probably return.

However, as year 3 isn't ICS, you have more of a chance to win an appeal to get into year 3 anyway.

It's possible that the elder sibling who "got" the previously given up space didn't take the class over PAN or similar - again, that would not have been ICS.

Hi BillnTeds. Our elder daughter who got in 'replaced' the only leaver at the end of term, who went to the same faith school as one of the children who is leaving this year. Numbers never went above PAN in September.

From all the responses, I'm thinking now that our Appeal should sway towards the fact that we need our daughter in school, with her siblings. Rather than dwell on the fact that the 2 children are leaving. I have been home educating her because when we arrived the LEA made a mistake with her application form and only managed to find her a school 5 miles away, and a private taxi both ways. She is a quiet and anxious child so we decided the best option would be to home educate until a place came up. But now, a whole year on...!!!, she really needs to get back into school. Academically she's fine but socially it has been really, really hard for her in a new area with limited friendship opportunities. She needs to have something to look forward to in September...Any thoughts?

This is standard procedure, and in fact the LA is the admitting authority for maintained schools so if it is a maintained school (not an academy, free school or church school) then the school can't offer you the place - the authority must do it. Until the child does not turn up in Sept they are on roll. If they don't turn up, the school should be notified by the new school that they are admitting them and the electronic CTF form which transfers them from one roll to the other will be sent and he place will then be available. If they don't turn up then the school transfer the CTF to the LA as a child missing in education. Either way the school or LA cannot admit another child to the place until this has happened. In fact, the LA will not necessarily know until the other parent fills in an admissions form for the new school and is admitted there, or they are notified by your school that the child has gone.

As other posters have pointed out, if circumstances change over the summer, the child may not leave (we have had this situation, especially over the summer hols). Also other children with higher priorities may leapfrog your waiting list position. The head is not axing this way due to inexperience, she is acting within the guidelines and not raising your expectations. Last time you could have been offered the place and it then have been withdrawn which would be worse. Good luck.

Agree with your appeal focus - the children leaving or not is neither here nor there. Focus on why it is right for her to be admitted with her siblings. At Y3 unless the school has strong opposition arguments then you should be offered a place over PAN

Hi Looby

Hang on for the appeals experts but is know that an appeal for year 3 and above is all about balance of disadvantage - so if your daughter is more disadvantaged by not being in the school than the school is by going above PAN, the appeal should admit.

The usual advice on here is to focus on things at the school that particularly benefit your child eg music lessons if she is musical. Also find out if they have previously gone above PAN in this year group as it shows they can cope.

(Are you on the waiting lists for any other schools? The fact the school originally found for you was five miles away doesn't of itself mean a mistake was made, especially as the LA arranged transport.)

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely rework our Appeal papers based on the advice here. They are currently over PAN in Yr4, and have been for that Yr group since Yr3 so there is precedent.

BillnTeds the mistake was that, when her sister was offered a place at this school on 23rd June they marked her sibling off as having a place there too. She didn't have a place - it was full. They discovered their mistake early August when I phoned to find out where my other child had been allocated. Only then did they start looking for a place for her.....anything else at all closer, that I could have managed the school runs for, had gone. We lost the Appeal on class size issue. We feel it's been very unfair on our daughter and are only coming against hurdles, legal technicalities or otherwise.....we're hopeful that this Appeal will turn in our favour but are struggling because of all the knock backs we've had. It took the LEA 4 months to even acknowledge they'd made a mistake. It's been an eye opener! Thanks for your advice - seems solid!

Oh, how crap for you about the mistake and them not apologising.

If a place at a nearer school for which you would otherwise have been top of the waiting list was allocated between 23rd June and early august, I think you would have had an appeal case for that school but I know you want them all together.

Hi BillnTeds

That's an interesting point, that we could have Appealed against the other closer schools who did offer out places during the summer months. I didn't think of it that way round at the time. We've been trying to keep our kids together and were advised by the LEA that if we took the 5mile away school option, and managed to get our Yr3 in there too then our youngest child would almost definitely not get a YR place come this September due to being out of catchment and sheer distance. We feel like we've made the best decisions we could but they haven't been ideal to be honest. It's been a tough year on this front. I don't mind the home schooling one bit but it has impacted on my daughter's self esteem, which was not great to start with.

It seems like we have a strong case for our Y3 Appeal this time but will change our tack now. The balance of disadvantage - hers v schools. Thank you all.

I'm still keeping an eye on all this if anyone else has anything to add. I can't believe how helpful this blog is - thank you to all you informed people, sharing your knowledge!!!!

If you were able to identify the school you would have got had the LA not made a mistake an appeal for that school should have succeeded even if it was an infant class size case.

Regarding the Y3 appeal the advice you've already been given is correct. Focus on the reasons your child needs to be at this school. Simply being with siblings is not a good case unless there is independent expert evidence showing your child has a stronger need than normal. Look for things this school offers that the current school doesn't. And yes, the fact they've been over PAN before will help.

Hi prh

I spoke to the Admissions Team at the time and they said they 'couldn't possibly know' which places she 'might' have got had they not made their admin error. At the time I queried it but got no further. I thought 'what sort of systems do they have that they can't tell???'. I've been amazed at the lack of transparency. And when I say 'amazed' I mean not in a good way....

Prh, I read loads of your threads when we had our initial appeal - they were invaluable in helping us structure our case but class size won out. I hope you might know the answer to this one! Under the Fair Access protocol children who have been out of education for 'more than 2 months' come fairly high up on the LEAs priorities for entry into schools. Do you think home education counts as 'out of education'? Do you think Fair Access protocol applies here or, because she was offered another choice of school, she doesn't qualify? Our Head pointed this clause out but I am dubious it applies.

What does ICS stand for?

No, home education does not count as out of education. And as you have been offered another school you are correct that the FAP does not apply. They have fulfilled their legal duty by offering a place and don't have to come up with anything else I'm afraid.

ICS = Infant Class Size. It refers to the legal limit of 30 children with a single teacher in Reception, Y1 and Y2, and the associated regulations around admissions and appeals.

Oh - thanks! So there is a bit more flexibility with junior class sizes?

Thank you, prh. Although I honestly don't like much of what I'm hearing (because it doesn't help our situation) I know that it all comes back to the legislation. And it is so much better to hear this now than to feel ill informed during the Appeal. Your words of wisdom are invaluable to many people going through Appeals and the suchlike. THANK YOU for taking the time.

The LEA have honestly been awful and we assumed that they would make amends by settling this before it actually ran to Appeal but they have not done so. It is stressing us out that we need to rely on an independent panel to 'do the right thing'. Fingers crossed we have enough on our side to weigh in our favour. Big thanks and fingers crossed for July.

Elisabetta2214 - That's right. There is no limit on class sizes in Y3 and above although appeal panels would generally be uneasy with taking a class beyond 32 or 33 pupils.

Thanks EVERYONE. I mean it. This has been so helpful in getting to the nub of our Appeal. Fingers crossed. I'll try and remember to post the outcome....unless, of course, I'm in a corner crying somewhere! ;)