High turnover of teachers

[DebbieFiderer]

Would you be worried if a large number of teachers seemed to leave a school in a relatively short space of time. DD1 is fairly new to school still so I haven't much experience of what is 'normal', but her school seems to have quite a high turnover of staff. Last year her teacher left at Christmas, and a larger number (half a dozen maybe) left at the end of the summer term, various reasons including retirement, adoptive leave, 'spending more time with family', new jobs closer to home etc. This year, both the year one teachers left at Christmas, and we have just been told that both the replacements (both NQTs) are leaving at the end of term (new jobs). Would this concern you?

The school has consistently struggled with OFSTED (previously satisfactory, now needs improvement as they have changed the description, same thing really) but I am reasonably happy with DD's progress, and she loves school (she would probably do better academically at a 'better' school, but would she be as happy?).

It could indicate bad SMT. However this won't necessarily be passed onto the children if they have employed good teachers and continue to do so.

if they have reasons for going then I don't think it would concern me. well obviously all teachers have a reason for leaving but I mean having babies, adopting, retiring etc are life events.

if they all start suddenly looking for new jobs and development opportunities then yes it could be an issue.

if she is happy and is making progress then that is the most important thing.

I think that level of staff turnover should ring massive alarm bells for anyone thinking of applying for a job at the school. Whilst it's not unknown for teachers to leave part way through an academic year, it's much more common to leave at the end of the academic year, so I think the number of teachers who have left at Christmas is notable. However, as BBT says, the fact that a school is an unhappy workplace does not always make it an unhappy place for the children, so I would keep an eye on things but definitely not rush into moving your daughter if she is happy.

The NQT comment is interesting. Most NQTs will get jobs starting in September. Starting as late as January is odd. Were they part-way through qualifying? If they only did two terms, they cannot be qualified. So why have they left? Two NQTs both working as year 1 teachers is an absolute No No in my book. They have no experience so should have been paired with another experienced teacher in a year group. The resignations are too high. What is the chat at the school gate?

A school that is an unhappy place to work is, almost certainly, a poorly run one. It is unlikely that this school will be getting better unless it can secure good and consistent teaching. I would wonder who was going to leave next and how the school will secure good or outstanding teachers. A child being happy does not tell you how good the teaching is. Your child might be very happy coasting. She might be extremely happy being pushed a bit more with an outstanding teacher and a fantastic curriculum.

Thanks all, some good food for thought, it will be interesting to see what other parents say this morning (letter about the teachers leaving only came home yesterday). I just hope this doesn't keep happening throughout her time at school, she has already had 4 class teachers in 2 years which isn't great :(

Is there a relatively new head? Similar happened at my dc's school about 18 months after we had a new (excellent) head. Got some really good teachers as replacements. Seems that is somewhat to do with staff agreeing with changes and fundamentally different approach to lesson observations and improvements.

If the school can only recruit 2 NQTs in the same year to replace those leaving, it clearly has a problem recruiting staff, but no problem losing them. Why on earth would two year 1 teachers leave at Christmas, anyway?! I would be very worried - if Ofsted come in again, I think the only way from Requires Improvement is down. With so many new staff, can the school really support the NQTs properly? Who is left who has got lots of experience in management, teaching and the particular school?

No, the head has been there for a while (not sure exactly how long but possibly around 5 years or more, the previous one had been teaching at the school for so long that she was deputy head when I was a pupil there!).

There is a big focus on the moment on getting kids more involved in their learning, ensuring they know what their learning objectives and next steps are, as these are the things OFSTED pulled them up on, plus stretching the brightest pupils. They seem to be making a big effort to improve but I don't know enough about these things to know whether they are going about it in the right way, or if it is all talk. DD seems to be progressing well though, I'm sure that at 6 I wasn't quite so obsessed with spotting alliteration everywhere, or discussing the difference between adverbs and adjectives :)

Ds in year 3 is on to his fourth teacher since September

People leaving isn't necessarily a bad sign, but it depends on why they're leaving. At my dd's school, teachers tend to leave a) if they're retiring or b) if they are moving to positions of greater responsibility, such as a deputy headship. I take the latter as a sign that the school is good at developing its staff and preparing them for the next step in their careers. Very few teachers at dd's school seem to move otherwise, and those that have left for promotion seem to keep reappearing at school functions and events, so I assume that they are find of the place.

A happy and supportive environment for teachers is crucial, I think. I would be a bit worried about a school where lots of teachers seemed to be leaving teaching altogether, or for similar roles in a different environment - I'd want to know why.

x-posted with rabbitstew. That's what concerns me, why are they struggling to recruit? Without going into two much detail, the ones who left at Christmas all had good reasons, so not too much of a concern, but the recruitment does bother me. It has also meant that the school can't run any clubs after school, as none of the teachers have time (either new and greeting up to speed, or supporting the new ones). It will be interesting to see what OFSTED say, I think they will have to be back soon as the last inspection was Jan last year and I think they come back sooner when it is RI?

I think there is generally a bit of a crisis in teaching recruitment. Certainly for headships, but to an extent also for standard teaching positions.

Rather a lot of teachers are leaving the profession. Means it's harder to recruit, particularly for schools with RI or SM in ofsted reports.

I'm in an excellent school (parents, children, results, management, Ofsted) and we struggled to recruit.

Maybe the NQTs aren't great and were only chosen as an interim measure so they're being let go. Or maybe they haven't been supported properly so are choosing to leave.

I'd look at the bigger picture and notice that this is happening all over the country. Then I'd wonder to myself, "Why are all these competent teachers leaving the profession?"

BigBongTheory
I wouldn't apply to an 'Outstanding' school. Too many people I have spoken to who work in such a school hate it. Too much pressure and too much emphasis put on targets and statistics. I have been told the work load is horrendous.
Happier schools are those who care more about the welfare of staff and pupils than the results. Sadly these are in great decline as OFSTED put more emphasis on our schools churning out robots who all make the 4 points progress every year, regardless of social mobility and the things life throw at us.
As adults, we know that life is a bitch and it can seriously affect our work and home as well as our mental state. Can you imagine how a 4, 7, 11 or 16 year old might be feeling when death, divorce, homelessness, domestic violence, mental health of a parent, poverty, illness affects them?
My school has lost four members of staff this year and losing another 4 at the end of July. All leaving because SMT are observing, monitoring and scrutinising work and planning every half term without even realising that by 'weighing us, we're not getting any fatter'!!

It could all be down to Michael Gove of course...

Sorry Junk, I meant a combination of those thing made it an excellent school. It's 'only' good according to Ofsted but is excellent because SMT value all of those things you've mentioned. It's incredibly nurturing for staff and pupils.

Sadly I can't get my own DC in....

Hmm, very interesting to look at it in a wider context, I certainly wouldn't want to be a teacher at the moment.

Any workplace with high turnover is suspect. A primary school is no exception, Michael Gove notwithstanding.

It could all be down to Michael.

Other than that there are two reasons a school might have a high turnover. A) It is a 'springboard' school where the CPD is great, teachers are encouraged to take on appropriate responsibility early, they thrive, they are confident, their CVs look great and they get promoted posts. B) It is a strained system and people burn out. The good find other, sideways, posts. Others find alternative exit plans.

There are some places where schools legitimately struggle to recruit. I work in one. My school is great but 10 miles away a teacher could earn significantly more due to London weighting. Why would you not work in the better paying school in those circumstances?

I would look at the reasons for leaving.

In one school locally 2/3rds of the teachers were leaving.
It was along the lines of: maternity leave, retiring (not early!), marrying and moving 100+ miles to be with dh, dh is in the army and they were being moved on, promotion...
All things that just happened to coinside in one year-no one had left for 2-3 years prior to that.

If they're making sideways (ie not promotions) moves, for little reasons, then you worry.

Just as much a school with almost no movement can get stagnated, few new ideas and very much set in their ways with no one challenging them, particularyl if the senior management team have all been there a long time and hold together. I have seen this happen too. They then dropped a bomb shell that SMT had been plotting (with some governors) for about 4-5 year.
I will add that I don't think any of the SMT or the governors are at the school now. They jumped-but only before they were pushed.

Some schools believe that high staff turn over is a positive thing and encourage staff to move on ...

High staff turnover especially in primary is not a great sign. My daughter in year 4 and only just having first teachers leave since she started except head who retired.