Yr 5 test question

[mogmum]

My DD is in year 5 and they are taking what I believe to be optional SATs next week.
My question is this. She is working very close to a 3a in maths and a 4c in literacy so she is doing ok so far.
Why then would I have been told that she will be having a reader for the tests for maths? Her teacher said it's just for extra support as sometimes she is a bit slower than the others at picking things up, but I thought you had to be quite behind in a particular lesson to get a reader
I thought I would see if any of you lovely people on here had been through anything similar

No idea on that one sorry. Why are Y5s doing SATs?

This is a permitted arrangement when a pupil wouldn't be able to convey their maths ability as a result of having slower or poorer reading ability. It's usually only permitted if normal working practice in the classroom.
Have you noticed that you need to read worded maths problems (homework?) together in order for her to know what to do?
I'd ask the teacher to clarify what it is about her reading that makes her eligible. However, I'd also frame it positively and be thankful to her for making this arrangement. Many pupils who are in desperate need of them are overlooked.

My son is in year 5 and I have never heard of them taking optional SATS. What is that all about?

This is permisable practice, since Sep 2013 each school has been able to determine support provision for each child, irrespective of IEP or SEN register.
In theory every child in a cohort could have either reader, scribe or both.
It does need to be evidenced that this is a regular feature for that child when they are being tested.
So if there is any remote possibility that in year 6 a child may require support it would be best practice to begin support during tests in year 5 to show this on-going trail.
In our school I have been the reader for three children this week and scribe for one, none of the children have SEN, all have got use to regular testing with this assistance, the reasons for support are varied and do not in any way link to ability.
Nor is it the case that a child is given a reader because they can not read the paper, it is more likely that the child can read but perhaps can't concentrate fully for the entire booklet, has issues with focusing, can read fine but struggles with technical words under pressure etc.

SATs are tested in y2 and y6, marked and reported externally.

In addition some schools test towards the end of Y3, Y4, Y5 using optional SATs papers. These are not marked and reported internally.

The tests themselves are similar in style to compulsory SATs and can be found for past years on the web.

They are used in schools to aid planning for teachers and to support teachers on-going leveling.

For parents they are gold-dust if the school send the marked papers home!
You have a good resources for seeing exactly what your child does not know and is unable to do unaided.

MogMum/ SuperMum222:

Here's the official information regarding optional SATs: www.education.gov.uk/sta/optionals

because past SATs papers are available on-line - many schools are slightly over-egging the pudding on this one.

DD1's school (Birmingham LEA) tests at start of school year (these are often marked harshly because the trend always seems to be to report to parents in October that there has been 'some loss of learning'/ 'overly lenient assessment' between last school year and this school year or my personal favourite 'if your child hasn't quite completed a NC Sub-level, our policy is to start at that sub-level again'). At our school these 'optional SATs' are given again at the end of each term.

My gut feeling is that these are given as a means of demonstrating progress external to teacher's day to day assessment (so providing the teacher with evidence to support his/her assessment of pupil progress). These optional SATs usually are given in the run-up to Christmas/ Easter breaks - in weeks where there are lots of field trips/ parties/ plays/ special activities - so in general taken as a test here and there in an otherwise relaxed/ out of the ordinary school week. Then during the KS2 SATs week Y3-Y5 will also take KS2 SATs tests (openly called 'optional SATs' - though unclear if just past papers), which according to the school is their means of preparing them for KS2 SATs in Year 6.

I think the question is what do schools do with this information. If a school can see through these past SATs/ optional SATs that a cohort is really struggling in maths, for example, and then go on to improve teaching in that area and implement remedial action for that cohort the following school year - then that's fabulous.

However, at least as far as I can observe at St. Mediocre, using this data is about the teacher documenting their working target that expected progress should be at least two NC sub-levels for each child, which in an era of performance related pay I suspect becomes more of the priority than identifying where to help a pupil/ class next.

Thanks all for your messages.
I knew you could put my mind at rest.
Her teacher says that she needs to believe that she can do it as her levels indicate that she can. She has had some extra coaching which has helped so I am currently thinking about getting a tutor for her

I'm a teacher. I've overseen the Year 5 optional SATS countless times, and marked them hundreds of times.
They are simply given as an extra assessment tool to aid teacher assessment of each child's ability. They have zero to do with performance related pay (sidebar we always had this despite what the government like to portray through the media in the last few years). Any child, in maths, can have a question read to them if they struggle to read, since it is a test of their maths, not reading. Some children need extra help to keep on track under a test situation - hence may get a reader for a full paper. Usually schools carry out the optional SATs papers during the same time that Year 6 do their SATS since it is logical and practical to do so. It us an extra assessment tool for end of year and means that whilst Year 6 are sitting their exams, the rest of the school is calm and occupied rather than the normal bedlam. It makes sense. It also shows just how much a child can do a) under timed conditions b) totally independently. It is an extra tool for assessment rather than the only one.

Pastsellbydate - the optional SATs have nothing to do with performance related pay. They are indeed used to help us know what a child can and can not do so that we can help them progress further. We do not care about pay. Our job is a vocation. Hence the reason threat after the optional SATs papers I spend hours and hours talking to each child individually about how they can improve in the areas they struggled with on the papers. I have yet to meet/know of a teacher how uses the test results as a link to a hope in pay rise. Which ceilings out at 6 years anyway. Hence most teachers won't get a penny more whether they have been teaching 6 years or 40 years. Incidentally the government now asks that most as easement levels are teacher assessed anyway. That means that despite an test result we are asked for our professional judgement in a child's level. We may not issue a level that will match their test result since some are bad at tests, tests only show a snap shot and for a plethora of other reasons.

Given that I spend hours analysing optional sats papers and writing reports on areas of strength/weakness in different cohorts ( year groups/boy/girl/FSM/SEN/EAL) and using the results to create MTP that address areas of weakness whilst ensuring that areas of relative strength are not neglected, I'm concerned to hear that all I should be doing is prioritising my ( non-existant) pay rise

While SATs are done for identifying each child's strength and weakness, how come the schools are not willing to show the marked test papers to the parents?

They probably don't think that it would be particularly useful to parents

No one has ever asked me!

and I imagine you discuss identified strengths and weaknesses and how to address them in reports and parent consultations spanieleyes?

Yes, but clearly I should be discussing my performance related pay instead

We are willing. All my parents can look at them any time they want - some take them home and bring them back. I've shared them countless times. If you suspect a devious teacher (snort of laughter if only we had the time) you can download one from the Internet, get your child to sit the paper at home and knock yourself out on the analysis. It's no biggy.

Rita1003: Glad to hear that in some areas not about performance related pay. With 3/4 of staff at St. Mediocre coming in as NQT and working there less than 3 years - I suspect this is one of those instances when it is - and I've been party to a conversation explaining optional SATs to a friend where rightly or wrongly the teacher made it clear it was used to evaluate their performance.

mrz: why on earth wouldn't it be useful to a parent to let us know how our child performed on a test - and I mean any test - a maths quiz, a snap quiz, a spelling text or an optional SATs/ SATs practice paper? I think you're making a huge assumption there that only teacher's can 'appreciate' or 'handle' such data appropriately.

The single most useful piece of information I was ever given as a parent was DD1's KS1 SATs results - all NC L1 (below expected progress). I knew she was struggling, I had gone to the school for help repeatedly since late Year R but was told I was worrying about nothing - after those results I knew it was down to me and DH to fill in the major gaps DD1 had.

I get mrz that in an ideal world parents should be able to send their kids to school and not give it a second thought. Indeed that was my experience when I was in school - my parents never taught me how to multiply two digit numbers by one digit numbers, what a noun was, how to organise paragraphs, etc.... But I can assure you at St. Mediocre genuinely, if I didn't do it, it was unlikely to happen.

Now I hasten to add DD2 has changed schools this year (Y4) and the difference (less than 1 mile away mind you) is like night and day. She's cheeking telling her father 'That's a rhetorical question Daddy, you're not intersted in the answer!' this weekend. We nearly passed out. As friends of ours said the change in DD2 - who was downtrodden and bored out of her skull is unbelievable. She's curious about everything, wants to know more, wants to look things up on the web to find out more or go get a book about it. Suddenly learning is seen as a good thing. So I do take your point that in this type context yes, perhaps mrz, I don't really need every little test score.

But if I'm honest - the trust isn't there - so I'd still like to know.

So I tell you your child scored 14/20 in a test - what does that actually tell you?

I'm a teacher and it doesn't tell me anything useful PSBD

and no I'm not suggesting that parents should send their child to school and leave it up to the school. I'm just pointing out that raw data is pretty meaningless to anyone be they parents or teachers or the man down the street.

mrz:

Although I take the point that one test score on it's own is not particularly helpful.

really? That's your professional view as a highly experienced teacher?

So in a scenario where I'm regularly getting maths quiz scores - let's say all areas of the curriculum open for testing - so not just multiplication tables:

Mrs PSBD your child scored 18/ 20 (gosh that seems like they've grasped the idea)

Mrs. PSBD your child scored 14/20 (hmmm - a few errors there - wonder whether it was a consistent mistake or misunderstanding the instructions)

Mrs. PSBD your child scored 10/20 (hmmm - they clearly aren't getting this)

Mrs. PSBD your child scored 4/ 20 (oh dear. that was a disaster).

I think this information regularly coming home is useful - it signals to me whether there is a problem or not. But I respect that as a teacher you feel strongly otherwise.

It probably is cultural - this kind of feedback to parents is normal in the US. Graded (Marked) quizzes & written work are endlessly flying their way home with kids for parents to see weekly, if not daily there. So from that context - no work coming home whatsoever and only shown 5 (at most) examples of 'in school' work briefly (maybe in the 5 minutes whilst I'm waiting to go in) at a parent/ teacher meetings - where I'm told all is lovely, and in the case of DD1 who was seriously struggling that things will improve next year, you'll see - I genuinely haven't found the English system of 'studied vaguery' that helpful as a parent.

Yes PSBD the overall score is the least helpful information I get from an assessment. It is only by analysing the results carefully I can see where children are secure in the curriculum and where they need more input and what aspects of the curriculum didn't feature at all in that particular test.

Take something as simple as the phonics screening check - the child decodes 40 words and last year achieved the expected level is they scores 32/40 - great they passess but only by looking at errors and omissions can I know what I need to teach next to move the child on. In a Y5 reading test I need to look at the type of question the child is answering correctly/wrongly - do they get every question testing that particular skill correct or not - what doesn't that test include ... likewise with maths and SPAG. One off tests are only a very crude indication of pupil knowledge and ability.

Mrs PSBD your child scored 18/ 20 (gosh may have to move them to another seat as they made exactly same errors as child sat on the next table)

Mrs. PSBD your child scored 14/20 (hmmm - a few errors there - wonder whether it was a consistent mistake or misunderstanding the instructions)

Mrs. PSBD your child scored 10/20 (hmmm - they clearly got distracted by the window cleaner outside)

Mrs. PSBD your child scored 4/ 20 (oh dear. wasn't really focused today perhaps because they had a falingout with best friend at breaktime).

mrz

I get (and would expect) any teacher can do more with cumulative test results (and I get that you do).

I don't get how withholding that information from a parent is good practice.

I find some of the default assumptions you're making (and I'm hoping you're being glib here) about a child's performance on an individual test appalling - although I accept in some cases (hopefully a very few) that may be the explanation.

Fortunately I'm just a concerned parent and don't claim to be particularly professional. But if your comments on test scores are typical of your approach....

well...