Year six SATs

[RoadRunner123]

Are parents generally informed about which SATs tests their children are entered for?

My son has been taking part in extra maths lessons for level six, but we have not been told if he has been entered for it. Likewise, he has been getting 5bs recently for the grammar tests, but my son says it still hasn't been decided who is taking the level six paper.

Is this usual?

Our DDs' secondary school bases end of KS3 target on their own baseline tests of the children, and they revise those targets twice a year.

When we went to the secondary school open day they advertised this fact - and the fact that primary schools tutoring for a L6 SATs test was a waste of time that added unnecessary angst to their last year at primary.

Speak to your intended secondary and see what weighting they put on L6 - many don't like it as it limits their ability to "add value" in the early years - they spend ages getting the kids up to the ACTUAL L6 - rather than the "teaching to the test level" that a lot of primary schools tend to do - and get a load of pearl-clutchy parents asking why their little darling is only a level 5 when they were ALREADY at level 6 in primary etc...

if a child has been taught the FULL L6 curriculum in primary, without the need for the additional lunchtime/after school tutoring that a lot of them do, and the secondary school uses those levels for setting and targets, then it is worth pushing for a L6 - otherwise why?

DD1 and 2 were both 5a/b for everything leaving primary, and are both top sets for all subjects and being stretched and encouraged to strive to be the best they can. L6 tests would have added nothing useful to the mix...

sorry.... cross post with PastSellByDate.... was meant for OP..

Hi StarDust:

I'm just a parent (so may have this totally wrong) but my understanding is that the KS2 SATs results are used for the Value Added measure at KS3 (info here: www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/archive/schools_05/sec9.shtml)

I think you are confusing a secondary school telling parents their child's current attainment level based on their testing (old SATs/ CATs/ etc...)/ expected progress based on their testing vs. expected progress based on reported KS2 SATs results to LEA.

Many secondaries play this 'game' to dampen down (I believe you charmingly termed it pearl clutching) parental expectations.

One imagines:

No, No Mrs. PSBD, scoring NC L6 at primary is not the same thing as NC L6 in secondary. What you need to understand.....

But the underlying reality is that NC L6 at KS2 SATs means the GOVERNMENT/ OFSTED expect the school to get that kid to NC L7/8 - and most schools (whether they want to or not/ whether they respect the approach to SATs the feeder primary took - and in our case who would?) - kind of have to honour that expectation.

I also think many secondaries don't appreciate that after May KS2 SATs most schools don't do any serious curriculum/ homework so in effect they receive a child who hasn't really been reading regularly, doing maths regularly in June/ July and may not have done anything much over August. And that hiatus in regular work (reading/ maths/ etc...) I suspect also adds to the mix.

The point I'm trying to make is that doing well on SATs - not stressing out your kid - but encouraging them to take it seriously and try their best - is ultimately important if you don't want them treading water for 2-3 years. If a secondary notionally has to get them to NC L7 or 8 and they've just scraped a 6 (yes that's hard work for the secondary) - but fantastic for your kid - it means the school will put in that effort to ensure it happens. If your kid gets an NC L5 (maybe even a high NC L5) the secondary is only obliged to get them to NC L6/ 7 (not much effort needed there then really - and yes most secondaries know that and allocate staff accordingly).

Hopefully this isn't everywhere - but I'm a very jaded old cynic about the English school system after these last 7 years.

I hate SATs. I hate the pressure DD is being put under, the tears at the breakfast table almost every morning, the carrot dangling good things once they have finished, it's just all too much.

Our primary school is a great little school and all 3 of my children are generally very happy there but goodness me the pressure has ramped up big time this year for DD.

The secondary school she is going to has made it quite clear during visits that they will do their own assessments in class before streaming the children during the autumn term and that they pay very little attention to SATs result.

PennySillin:

Totally agree - secondaries will stream based on their own testing methods - but their progress measure (VA Measure) will be measured against reported KS2 SATs results for each pupil (so they'll be under pressure for your child to attain 1 to 2 full NC Levels better than KS2 SATs results).

I can only speak from my experience but the more pressure a school puts on the kids and the more freaked out teachers get about preparation (lots of past papers, workbooks, etc...) the more likely it is that the school is going to struggle to reach the new target of 65% or more of all pupils in Y6 to NC L4 in Maths/ English combined.

Our school achieved 62% in 2012 and 67% in 2013 (just scraping it and some seriously stressed out teachers in early June waiting for results). I suspect 67% this year will be a huge ask given the givens.

I think for political reasons it no longer is likely that primaries will be forcibly made an academy if they feel to jump over the 65% NCL4+ KS2 English/ Maths SATs - but I suspect the primary who fails to achieve this standards will be saying Hello to Special Measures and the HT will be encouraged to moved on.

sorry should have been fail to jump - not feel

Hi....

I'm a parent too, and feel that we appear to have been very, very lucky with our secondary school.... no treading water here thankfully...

From the newsletter ... (and from our own experience)

"We strongly believe that students perform at their best when expectations of them are high. By providing aspirational targets within a supportive and encouraging learning culture, we give our students the confidence to perform above and beyond their own expectations. "

Yes they have to add around 2 NC levels (well, 3 full levels in total by the end of Y11) - but thankfully, they see that as a starting point not an end goal.

but our primary, along with many others in this leafy MC suburban area achieved 95% L4... so I guess the secondary schools round here are taking from a high achieving pool and having to add value to gain "we want our kids to go there points" with parents......

StarDust:

Yes I think that's brilliant that you are confident 'expectations are high' - but I can assure you practically every secondary school in the land says that.

(I'm paraphrasing from one of Ken Robinson's TEd Talks) but nobody in their right mind would send their child to a school where the blurb said 'We believe in doing the bare minimum'.

Indeed around here the more the blurb is about high expectations the lower their GCSE/ A-LEVEL thresholds. (here around only 40% achieving 5 A-C GCSEs is typical of our senior school options - grammar schools are state funded in Birmingham and cream ca. 800 brightest students (15% of student population) out of the comprehensive system).

I think it is your statement that your DCs forthcoming senior school sees achieving 3 full NC Levels by Year 11 as a minima which is the brilliant thing - but I can assure you many around here are really just focused on getting 40-60% of Y7 cohort up to NC L4 in Y7 or Y8.

So getting your child away from that struggling group - not because initially they are bad kids but because struggling educationally as a teenager can lead to other more negative behaviours - disrupting class/ acting out/ dropping out/ peer pressure to misbehave/ etc.... - around here it is seriously sensible to want your child to achieve NC L5 preferably NC L6 so they're streamed away from that group - avoiding the behavioural issues and progressing educaitonally.

No grammar schools where I am, but given DD1's experience I would have to say PastSellByDate is as usual correct - getting a good L5 and preferably L6 in SATs puts your DC in top sets where the aspirations are genuinely high and not just a matter of words - because those are the kids who will give the school their A* to C GCSE scores. It's cynical, but that's just how it is.

my ds is doing year 6 sats next week.
Yesterday I asked the teacher for a timetable,so I have some idea of exactly what he is doing on each day .( hes taking the level 6 maths paper as well)
The teacher looked surprised that I had dared ask for such information,and seemed reluctant to help.

Anyway she promised to get me the info,but up to today ,nothing has been sent home.

Does anyone on mumsnet know what TESTS OUR KIDS ARE DOING,AND ON WHAT DAYS NEXT WEEK?

ps - our school are opening early all next week,for the sats, to ensure that all year 6 children get a decent breakfast.
I cant believe there are parents who would let their kids go to school without a breakfast,but that's obviously what happens in some families,or else why would our school bother,I am saddened by this,

Mon 12th am Reading test pm L6 reading test
Tues 13th am SPAG pm L6 SPAG
Weds 14th am Mental maths (20 mins) Maths paper 1

Thurs 15th am Maths paper 2 L6 maths papers (2 x 45 mins)

We were given the timetable last week. I think I have thrown it away, but copied dates onto my calendar.

Mon Reading
Tue SPAG
Wed mental maths and maths 1
Thurs maths 2

I think the L6 papers are on the same day as the L3-5 papers. Not sure whether maths is on the Wed or Thurs though.

When you say papers 3-5, is that one paper or is there a separate paper for 3,4 and 5? Ds said he couldn't get higher than a 4a because he wasn't allowed to sit the level 5 paper....is he right?

No, the paper covers levels 3, 4 and 5 so there is the opportunity there to get anything from a 3c to a 5a!!

around here it is seriously sensible to want your child to achieve NC L5 preferably NC L6 so they're streamed away from that group - avoiding the behavioural issues and progressing educaitonally. Sometimes it's seriously sensible to be led by your child and their interests rather than push them too hard to excel at something that doesn't interest them.

Just thinking of my db who had no interest in getting a good education but he had interests in other things...runs a very successful business based on his passions. Sometimes I think we can all get a bit carried away with the importance of formal education and we forget that enjoyable successful careers are often made out of simple interests and hobbies.

That's a very fair point, Blackjack but I have to say that my DD1 was very very relieved to be set away from some of the children who had been making her life miserable in Yr 5 and 6. She's very academic and her interests overlap the curriculum. For her, not being surrounded by disruptive children took an enormous amount of stress out of her day. It has been a transformative thing for her.

DD2 looks cut from the same cloth though she is more resilient, but she too gets very irritable with disruptive children getting in the way of her learning.

I do agree though that we need to support children whose natural talents lie in other areas and that the UK is very bad at this at the moment. We need excellent vocational/creative/business oriented education alongside the traditional academic routes.

The Headteachers' Roundtable just published this: headteachersroundtable.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/a-great-education-for-all-our-education-manifesto-2015/

It's not that long and is worth reading because they've specifically made a point about transition being a bit rubbish (part of which is definitely the useless bickering over KS2 levels).

caringdad66: info from animals is correct but official timetable for 2014 KS2 SATs available here: www.education.gov.uk/sta/keystage2/b00208296/ks2-2014/ks2-2013

Blackjackcrossed - you raise a great point but I would just ask you to review the change in results over time since the mid 90s on KS2 English/ Maths SATs results published by the Guardian: www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/sep/19/sats-results-key-stage-two - and scroll to two tables at bottom. In the mid-90s 13% of pupils scored NC L5 in Maths and 20% in English - in 2013 41% scored NC L5 in Maths and 48% in English.

Regardless of whether this is 'watering down' of the test or 'teaching to the test' - the point is that 40%-50% of kids are achieveing NC L5s these days - therefore this isn't 'an overly academic' result.

Indeed at the University end of the game we have to start from square 1 and teach students how to write essays/ cite texts - and basically gently teach them how to research.

I take the point that your child - now most likely >18 years of age - didn't score NC L5/6 at KS2 SATs and has done just fine - but again statistically and in today's times - even scoring NC L4 means it is dicey whether you will achieve Cs at GCSE. Apparently the government is so concerned schools are now being asked to report both NC L4 KS2 SATS results and then results at NC L4b and above in 2014 results (to be published publically in Dec 2014).

So although I think it is fabulous your child had an interest and has built a business around that, I suspect that isn't the majority of his peer group who most likely work in companies/ for national bodies/ etc...

It's not just about being academic - it is about the fact that the unemployment rate in the 20 year old age group right now is running at about 50% in some places. So many students are applying for positions where employers can simply scrap CVs where they candidate doesn't offer all As and A* at GCSE and soon only at A Level (remember pupils will have to stay in school until 18 now).

So I do take your point - but prefer to hedge my bets, keeping all options open for my child (who by the way doesn't just study but at the moment has no one thing she's majorly into and wants to go on to do in life, which I think is pretty normal at 11).

It wasn't my child psb it was my brother, he was very clever but just didn't enjoy school and my mum did worry about him but there's more to success than academic qualifications and I fear many state schools are too busy focusing on league tables to focus on personal development.

Our local secondaries are obsessed with university entrance and while that may work for their league tables, it doesn't necessarily work for all their pupils, everyone does not need or benefit from a degree. We need clever, skilled trades people too.
You only have to look around the very expensive town we live in, the commuters into London with fabulous jobs have fairly small houses - it's the trades people who have made the serious money.....I think we need to stop thinking that a degree is the only pathway to success.

There are many reasons why a child may have a low score in ks2, they not necessarily failing, many are just not ready and blossom at secondary - I know lots of cases where this hash appended and I'm sure many dcs do well in ks2 Sats and then switch off to learning at secondary. The league tables will not show that though.

My ds for example has only really started to become engaged in learning this year - he's year 6. But his hard work has been, self-driven and consistent throughout the year and he has astounded his teacher with his progress, he scored a 5A in his last reading test which wasn't too shabby considering he was predicted 4b at the start of the year - he is playing catch up, no doubt.

I have every faith that he will continue to apply and motivate himself, had I pushed him before Year 6, there would have been no need for him to develop self motivation, his education would've become my responsibility, not his.

There are many different skills needed for success in life - they all need to be considered.

What are your year 6's doing this weekend?

Mine had a sleepover with her friend last night, and she's currently on the wii. Later we will have a long late lunch and a dog walk. No homework at all set, thank goodness. How about everyone else?

DS2 is at (very wet) Scout camp. Been there since Fri pm.

At least 2 of his mates (according to him anyway) haven't gone because it is the weekend before SATs. and about it too. If they wanted to go camping in the rain that is DS was v v keen.

Dd1 is camping this weekend too, but sats are a distant memory for her. Dh has gone to collect her, so I shall be spending this evening sticking mud covered clothes in the wash.

It's a shame that some children are missing out on the camp, but I hope your ds2 had a lovely time.

DD is lounging, having spent last Thursday and Friday competing in her main extra-curricular activity, involving being at the competition venue for 12 hours each day.

She's allowed a snack and nice drink for break every day next week, so she's going out with DH in a few minutes to buy the sort of things we never usually buy, like smoothies....

We had a leisurely day yesterday and today we had a fabulous field archery shoot out in the forest - the rain stayed away, the bacon rolls were perfect and DD shot a new personal best.

Dd is chilling minecraft earlier and now she's watching a dvd. The only nod to SATs her school have sent home was a reading test paper and 100 mental maths questions (optional) last half term break.
Her teachers serve them breakfast at school next week so she's looking forward to that and the party on Friday. SATs haven't been made a big deal of, it's been business as usual really.