Any advice on disagreeing with schools punishment?

[BonesyBones]

Hi everyone, I've never posted here before, but was just wondering if anyone can offer some advice.

My 6yo is in Primary 2 at school (equivalent of Year 1 in England) and the school use a colour system to assess behaviour. Each child starts each day on green, and they get moved through yellow, orange and then red for behaviour which is deemed inappropriate. The children have a chance to earn their colour back to green, but if they are not on green by the end of the day they miss out on "choosing time", and instead spend they time reflecting on what they have done wrong.

I agree that this is a good system which teaches children to understand the consequences of their actions, but recently I've had a bit of an issue.

My son has been repeatedly put onto yellow the last few weeks, and when I ask him why I always get the same response, "I just couldn't think of the right answer".

He has a great teacher, and until today I wasn't convinced she'd punish a child for this. Today my son came out of school and told me he'd been on red but had earned it back up to orange. I asked him why and was met with the same answer, so I spoke to his teacher, who said that he had spent an hour daydreaming instead of doing his work; but when she went and sat with him he had answered all of the questions within ten minutes.
I confirmed that my son had not been disruptive during this hour, and his teacher said that he had not, he had just been daydreaming.

We have had a similar conversation with this teacher before, my son seems to need constant approval of everything. He's like this at home too. It's almost like he has a fear of failure, despite our reassurance that it doesn't matter if things aren't right the first time. Also the fear seems a bit irrational as he has never failed at anything, so certainly doesn't have a negative experience of failing.

What I'm a bit angry about is that my child is being punished in the same way as, for example, a bully, and is now firmly under the impression that this behaviour is bad. I disagree. I feel like my son is being punished for not having confidence in his ability to complete the work.

I have tried and tried to look at all sides of this. I have tried to put myself in the position of his teacher, who has a class of twenty-five six year olds, all of whom have different needs, some of whom who will be in genuine need of extra help with the work, I realise that these children will take priority; however his teacher seems to be dismissing that there is a problem here, and marking it down as my son CAN do the work, so he must just not want to.

I really don't feel this is true, as I said he's the same at home.

I think the teacher is really good at her job, but I also feel that if this is a confidence issue for my son, punishing his personality, will only make the problem worse.

Another issue I have is that we have a reward system at home which my son cannot reach the top of unless he has achieved green at school. I feel like I can't dismiss his teacher's decision to change his colour, because that will teach my son that rules only apply when we agree with them, but at the same time, I don't feel like I can prevent my child achieving his rewards at home, when I don't agree with the reason he's been punished at school.

It's all really upsetting me, and giving me a headache to think about.

I have a few questions:
Am I overreacting?

If you were a teacher, would you punish for this? Why?

Should I take this further up the school, or just accept that while my son is at school he's not in my care and the teacher makes the final decision?

I really feel like I need to defend my son with this one.

I think you're overreacting.

A child who spends an hour not concentrating will disrupt the class. If other children see him not attending, why should they? It's rude for a start, even if he does know the answer. It sounds like you're supporting him in that behaviour too - don't you think it matters?

And if changing colour level doesn't motivate him to tune in for the rest of the day, of course he should go down again.

My son's school operates a similar system. Very bad behaviour skips a level - you can go straight to red, in fact. So I don't think he's being equated with bullies. I'm fairly sure a bully doesn't just get put on yellow!

How about asking the teacher for strategies to keep him focused? A positive solution to the problem.

Thanks for your reply, I understand your point about other children seeing my sons behaviour and in turn thinking they could behave in the same way. I disagree however that I am supporting this behaviour, I am very keen for him to concentrate, I believe that education is very important; however I feel that as you say, a change of colour is not motivating him, and that there is more of an issue here. He is not refusing to do the work, he just seems to need constant reassurance that what he is doing is correct.

This is not something I feed, I encourage him to be independent, and to try himself before seeking help, but seem to be getting nowhere. I realise this must be no fun for his teacher who also has 24 other kids to help, some of whom really need help, instead of my son just 'wanting' help I suppose is the right way to put it.

I just don't see how a punishment for this is supposed to help. It obviously isn't working, and like you said, feel there should be a more positive solution. Unfortunately as good as the teacher is at her job, she doesn't seem to agree.

Also a note on the bullying, these children are also punished by being moved down to yellow, and while I don't necessarily think my son's behaviour is any more or less worse than bullying (as both of these behaviours will affect other children) I do feel it should be handled differently.

It sounds like she isn't good at classroom management

He needs to learn to concentrate, full stop, if he is to continue at school. If teacher says his concentration isn't a problem, she shouldn't sanction for it; since she considers it a problem she needs to offer a solution.

As a side issue, ask for a copy of the school's policy on bullying. I can see that single instances of unkind behaviour could send a child on to yellow, but there should be a joined-up policy for actual bullying.

I don't think you are overreacting.

I would have a reward system to he linked to school- behaviour is already dealt with at school.

Well it seems that the problem is that you and her disagree about why he is not managing to concentrate and complete his work.
She clearly feels that this is more of a lack of focus and 'choosing' not to work rather than being unable or lacking confidence.
Personally even if what you believe is correct it sounds as if he is not doing anything to actively help himself. He sat for and hour and had done nothing?! All other thing being equal I would be pretty unimpressed with a child waiting that long to let me know he was struggling.
This behaviour is not good. It's not in the same league as violence or disruption etc but still..
I would make an appointment for a proper chat. Tell her what you feel is the problem and maybe go armed with some sensible suggestions to help him.

Unfortunately the school don't seem to have very good management with bullying at all, we're in quite a deprived area and some of the things you see/hear are quite horrifying.

That aside, the school really is a very good one. I agree completely that my son needs to focus and complete his work independently, but I can discuss this with him until I have no breath left, and five minutes later he's forgotten. I have tried punishment at home, and am fully aware that it has no effect, rewards for positive behaviour work to an extent, but this isn't really suitable for school, because once he's on green, there's nothing higher to aim for, and we're back to square one.

My point is exactly as you say though, if she can't address this as an issue which needs a suitable solution she shouldn't be punishing, and if she is going to agree that this is a problem we need to work together to come up with a positive solution for my son.

Feel like I'm going in circles!

If he hasn't earned his reward (choosing time) by doing his work what do you think should happen? Perhaps you need to see the sanction as a removal of a reward for working hard rather than as a punishment.

I don't think I'd link his home reward chart to something from school.

Home is home. School is school. He should have a fresh start each time he arrives at one or the other places.

I would feel the same as you Bonesy. I would want the school to help and support my dc with concentrating rather than punish. Especially at such a young age.

"He sat for and hour and had done nothing?! All other thing being equal I would be pretty unimpressed with a child waiting that long to let me know he was struggling."

While I completely agree with this, we spent the first half of this school year agreeing with and supporting his teacher in that he should not be asking for help with work he can actually do, and be constantly pulling the teacher away from helping other children.

Now he has come to the conclusion that he cannot interrupt the teacher for any reason.

My son is a little odd in the way he takes in information. Because we've told him not to ask for help if he doesn't need it, he now won't ask for anything, help, the toilet etc... He won't report to the teacher when others have pushed him over/called him names, because he thinks this is unnecessary interruption.

So I believe this to be the reason he sat for an hour without saying anything.

I'm not for a second suggesting my son should be allowed to daydream the day away, until the teacher has time to come and work with him when he is capable, I just feel the way it is being dealt with is wrong.

His being able to do the work with the teacher sat next to him may suggest that he needs some kind of prompt to get him started and remain focused on his work. This is clearly an ongoing issue and the sanctions don't appear to be working for him.

Well, how would you deal with it? You need to offer the teacher a better solution if you don't think she's dealing with it well. In a class of 24, one child doing nothing for an hour and needing the teacher's time unnecessarily to catch up can be as disruptive as a child playing up and being naughty.

We used to have this colour chart system in my school around 10 years ago. We ditched it, because it was a pain in the arse to administer, and proved to be pretty ineffectual.

Just sayin'.

What I would do (primary teacher here) is break down the tasks for him. If they were answering maths questions...I'd show I'm 3 from the sheet/task card and ask him to start those and I'll b bak in 5 mins. I've used an egg timer before to show them when 5 mind will b up. Go back, praise him if complete, set another 3 questions...etc etc. maybe he needs a separate reward chart for concentration as its a specific problem to do with his learning and not a behaviour issue which is what the traffic lights is.

I stand by my earlier comment about mixing your home reward chart with where he was on traffic lights at school. Too confusing.

Too confusing and actually unfair. I wouldn't like to be judged at home on my performance at work!!!!! Would you?!

I agree, de-couple home and school rewards.

What mammadiggingdeep says sounds good.
My DD2 struggled too to work independently in y1/y2 and needed more regular encouragement than others in the class.

Maybe you also need to go through scenarios on when he should / should not ask for help to make it clearer.

AgentProvocateur, seriously? I don't think the OP mentioned they were a teacher, surely the teacher would be better placed to make some suggestions on how a child can be engaged in the learning process. Do they not cover this in training and do they not gain any experience in this through the hands on experience they acquire.

The school my DCs go to will discuss any issues they observe with the parents and will bring a solution to the table or at the very least open a dialogue with the parents in which to establish a workable solution. Progress will be monitored and if there is no change then the teacher will discuss it further with the parents, often bringing more ideas to the table whilst allowing the parents to have some input. My DCs school also use the traffic light system, however, they do identify children who do not respond to this and they will use supplementary reward systems for them.
A number of these children are SEN (not suggesting for one minute that OPs DC is SEN BTW) and they respond better to different approaches.

One point I would add is that the child could be daydreaming through boredom. Is the child being challenged? The child did nothing for an hour yet when the teacher sat with them they did it in 10 minutes. This to me would suggest that the child certainly is not struggling with the work.

Agree with people who are suggesting that you ditch the link between school and home reward systems. You can't do much to change the teacher's system (though it does sound wonky to me) and making a big deal of it may decrease his confidence further. I think a bit of healthy disinterest in the exact school goings on might not be a bad thing. He sounds like quite a sensitive little boy and I think too much concern on your part might be counterproductive and make him feel more anxious by giving him the message that if he doesn't end the day on green he doesn't just lose his choosing time but also really disappoints/worries mummy.

Hi. I'm a teacher in Scotland, and also have a 7 year old boy myself who sounds very similar to your ds - so I can perhaps see things from both sides! It is very frustrating when a capable child constantly daydreams - whether you are his teacher or his parent!

My son's school and my school both use a system similar to the one at your ds's school and its generally quite effective - however, I probably wouldn't use if for not completing work unless I felt the child was being disruptive to others, or persistently was not putting in any effort despite reminders. I would be more likely to ask the child to complete their work at playtime or as extra homework - this is what happens to my son when he daydreams too much. In fact, he's only ever missed his "golden time" once - and that was for something much worse!

I'm glad that he is not punished for being a daydreamer as this is "part of his personality" (according to his teacher!), but like you I am very keen to discourage this trait and we do all we can to help him overcome this. Two things that have really helped my son - 1) He had a smiley face chart last year in which he could earn a max of 3 smileys per day -smileys awarded simply for working hard - quite easy for teacher to do and we gave him 10p pocket money for each smiley (he could earn up to £1.20 a week). He loved this! This year his teacher has used a timer with him which he responds well to - eg, you've got till this timer (sand timer) runs out to write the first paragraph etc. She's really positive with him too, which helps a lot. (Much more patient than me!)

He still has his good and bad days but we are slowly getting there. I think these kinds of ideas work much better than punishment, especially if your son is not getting his choosing time any day, as where is the incentive for him? Hope you can work something out for him.

I actually think yanbu. You are describing a child a lot like my dd. She was like this a lot at aroung primary 2/3 stsge pre her dyspraxia diagnosis.
We were exceptionally lucky in that she had a teacher that realised this was who she was and was not naughty behaviour thus punishments would be utterly useless. We talked at length about finding solutions to her daydreaming and agreed to let dd set her own targets. She is also very keen to please and be reassured she is doing the right thing. She could and can do the work some with a struggle but found it difficult to ask for help.
So for example she had 10 sums there would be a discussion with dd to find out how many she believed she could do. If she said ooh they look hard I can manage 3. She, more often than not would complete all 10 because she wanted to beat her own target but also because she felt less overwhelmed as the pressure had been taken off her to complete it all.

The fact that he is anxious about pleasing and that he completed them in 10 minutes with someone sitting with him suggests he is feeling some negative emotion about completing it and with the reassurance of someone with him he has completed them. I think a discussion needs to be had with the teacher about this and working towards a solution to help him focus.

Mumtryingherbest, yes it was a serious suggestion in a "working in partnership with the school way" rather than a "do you think you know better than the teacher" way. I've read it back an realise it could be read as being arsey, but it wasn't meant that way at all. Sorry, OP, if you thought it read like this.

I've worked in a school with the traffic light system (though only green, amber and red).

It worked because every child, regardless of where they were on the traffic lights at the end of the lesson, would go back to green for the next lesson.

At this age, all they need to know is that they have made a wrong choice. Having to "earn" their way back up the lights seems way too complicated for Year 1.