Opinions please: state or independent school at primary?

[9VFNNEM]

Hi,
I have read through some of the other threads on this, but there are such different views and they seem to be situation-specific, so I would really value others' views on this:

• we have got our kids into the local 'Outstanding' primary school
• they also have offers from a mid-tier local independent school
• we have very busy jobs that involve late evenings sometimes, although we're very good at juggling between the two of us

We like the idea of the state primary because it is local, free and gets good results. But, it does not have before or after school care available and we'd need to take on childcare as wrap-around, it is cramped and has poor facilities and little in the way of playgrounds. There is little in the way of extra-curricular activity in the early years.

We like the independent school because it is small, has great facilities and extra-curricular, has before and after-school clubs available 'ad hoc'. But, it is a short drive away, rather than a 15 minute walk to the local school, the fees will pretty much wipe out all of our income after bills etc and we just can't see how we can manage to cover 86 days of holidays (as opposed to 66 in the state sector) per year.

Concerns: kids doing too-long days when they're little, missing out on extra curricular because we just can't manage the logistics for 3, getting lost in the system (there will be over 100 kids starting at the local primary in Sept), having absolutely no money for anything if we pay fees.

How to balance this and come to a good decision is proving very difficult!

Just as a note, we also feel quite affiliated to the independent school as we have had many visits and open days, including conversations with the Head, whereas the local primary had virtually no visiting days and we didn't even encounter the Head in passing.

9VF:

OK I think there's only one decision to be made.

FINANCIAL: Can you afford private (independent) school fees for the next 7 years? And does this just lock you into private school all the way through?

In effect the state school your child has been accepted to sounds like it gets good results - but research KS2 SATs results over at least last 5-6 years - are they consistent. Is the HT new or close to retirement? Things can change. Peformance tables info here: www.education.gov.uk/schools/performance/ - type in post code of school for June 2013 KS2 SATs results (this year's results will not be published until Dec 2014). and you can research previous years results by clicking Performance Tables 1994-2012 on menu at bottom left of that page. What you're looking for is a school that is consistently getting majority of pupils to NC L4 and possibly a respectable percentage to NC L5. Also look at how the school does with low/ medium/ high achievers. It's all well and good if they get 100% of the high achievers to their target, but how do they do with 'average' students or 'poor' students?

Child care may not be the issue. Our school runs all sorts of after school clubs (running until 4:30 p.m.) - so in fact by joining up the language clubs/ sports clubs/ dance clubs/ music groups/ etc... and a bit of flexible working hours (so DH comes in to work late and I go in to work early so I can pick up at 4:30) - it is in fact possible to juggle the 'going to school thing'. Also sometimes employers will be flexible - allowing you to work shorter hours 'at work' to make the school run as long as you then put in a bit more time in the evening (obviously dependent on type of job/ your reliability/ flexibility of management).

Also more and more schools are incorporating before/ after school clubs so my first piece of advice is talk to the school (just e-mail the enquiry contact e-mail address and ask) or ask parents you know who have children there what provision there is - but this website may help you find out what is available locally for you: www.gov.uk/after-school-holiday-club. The after school club for our school is not run by our school, but they take in children from a number of schools in the area - something similar may be available.

HTH

Also 9VF:

Because this does catch parents on the hop every year - find out how the school will start your DC's Year R class in September.

Some schools go in for part-time for the first term (so half-days) - but often the nursery your child was at will continue to have them until they turn 5.

Some schools go for a staggered entry - so part of the class goes one day, your DC and a few other pupils go the next, and the remainder of the class go the third day, and then gradually the numbers are increased. So week 1 your DC may go for only 2 days, Week 2 they may go for 3 days and Week 3 they may go for all 5 days.

Always advisable as well to regularly check Dates for your Diary section of the school's website. Teacher training days/ closures for elections/ closures for strikes etc... also make juggling work/ child care commitments interesting.

HTH

start in the state, see how it goes for a few years, and if it doesn't work transfer to the private?
I think it's harder to go from private to state than v.v.

Points to consider

• is there a local breakfast/after school club connected with the school? OR childminders that do drop off/pick up? Even if there is no provision a the school itself these may be very easy options.
• I wouldn't worry about extra-curriculuar too much in the early years - IMO this comes into its own at junior age.
• what do existing parents think about cramped conditions/lack of outdoor space etc.
• asking for a tour with HT of state school or at least senior member of staff. Though remember that the HT of a private school is also marketting the school to you so will do more of a selling job.
• don't fixate on good results. A school's results are indicative of its intake. They don't really give you any idea how YOUR child will do.

TBH the point that stood out was that it would be a stretch financially. Unless you think incomes will go up in the future, I'm not sure I'd want to take on something that made me so financially precarious. Bear in mind that private school fees are likely to rise more than the rate of inflation and you potentially have more expensive uniforms/trips/extras/more holiday cover to pay out for.

Thanks for all the great comments. To answer some of the questions: there's no before school club at all and the afterschool club is so oversubscribed that they have said it will be at least a year, if not two before I could get regular after school cover.
Existing parents are all glad their kids have got in because this school is oversubscribed by about 4 to 1.

If we could afford it (4 kids no chance) I would send mine private for primary because I live in an eleven plus area and chances of getting into the super selective girls grammar would be greatly increased if they were at a prep.

I think if you're going to send them to a private prep unless you've got the option of a grammar you need to be able to follow it right through ie private secondary too.

A very close friend has moved her girls from our outstanding primary to a prep and is astounded at the extra cost on top of the fees- trips,super expensive uniform,music lessons and extra curricular activities.

If you can't afford independent schooling including covering holiday care, then you have no choice other than accepting the state school.
As for the affiliation to the independent, that's what is is like when you visit independent schools, you are a potential customer and you are being shown the product. The open day at state schools is mainly to assuage the curiosity and calm jitters of parents.
Could you hire a local nanny who can pick up and ferry the kids to clubs if need be? I wouldn't worry so much about extracurricular activities at a very young age, there will probably be at least one after school club at the state school your children would like. And if there is something particular that your children would like to do then the nanny can get them there and back. Music teachers can come to your home, or there are always Saturday clubs for music, language, swimming, football, ballet... You are basically expressing common problems of all working parents. If you are worried about the days being too long, but you have no choice but to work the hours you do, then the children will just have to adapt to it. It really depends on what you are comfortable with. If you really felt that the days were too long then perhaps you and your husband might be able to negotiate a couple of shorter days a week especially as the pressure would be off without the added burden of school fees. Sometimes it can seem insurmountable, one step at a time in the land of reality. If you can't afford the independent and it will impact you enormously now, it will only get worse as school fees rise and the expectation is entry into an independent secondary after primary. And there are always the wonderful ( extremely expensive) school trips to pay for too.
At the moment, private schooling sounds like a dream.
The 100 student intake at the state school is normal for them. A state school is what it is. Be grateful that your children were offered a school place and embrace the reality.

Again thanks for the candid comments, which I really appreciate.
We have not made any decisions regarding secondary schools, but I am leaning towards state secondary.
The other thought is scholarships and whether we'd be more likely to have one or more of them have a chance at a scholarship if they've had a private primary.
On the nanny front, we would have to employ a nanny if they went to state school and the cost of that will be broadly approximate to the fees, although not inc the private school extras of course.

Scholarships are pretty useless on the money front - some are as little as £200.

Most financial help with fees comes with winning a bursary which will be means-tested.

I would be wary of doing indie primary and then state secondary - far better the other way round imo.

Have a look at childcare in the local area. I use a local childcare company that provides after-school and holiday cover till age 11. DD goes there in the holidays/inset days/strike days etc. They also drop off / pick up from 5 local primaries with breakfast and after-school provision.

Multi-form intakes do have some advantages - a bigger friendship pool, ability for teachers to split troublesome cliques into different classes etc. DD is in a 2 form intake school and I haven't felt it is too big - if anything, I felt that the 25 pupil intake in the school that she was in the nursery class of was a bit too small (and I was in a class of 12 at prep-school, so small class sizes were what I was used to).

Larger schools also have more ££.

On MN people make a big deal about extras in private school but in my experience at prep school the extras are minimal. I have never paid more than £200 a term and that could easily be reduced to between £15-40 a term. My DD's do a couple of sports clubs at £50 a term, all taught by outside organisations and speech & drama taught following the LAMDA programme at £65 a term. All far cheaper than doing the same out of school. All are entirely optional and I wouldn't hesitate to drop them if we couldn't afford it, the children have no idea who does which clubs so I wouldn't worry too much about extras. The huge uniform bill that is also spoken of runs at £35 over the last 2 years which was for a summer dress. I'm expecting a complete set of uniform for free at the end of term when some year 6's leave. So again, minimal cost there and that should see us through to the end bar school shoes which we'd be buying wherever they went to school.

We decided to go for an excellent state Primary, although we had a space reserved at private if we didn't get the school we wanted.
DD did get the state Primary and now we are hoping that DD gets into Grammar so we will be using the money we have saved to pay for extra tuition for that.
We also have money put away in case she doesn't get into Grammar and we need to go private at Secondary level. We would happily send DD to a good state Secondary if one was available ( it isn't).
Same plan for DS, he got into the same excellent state Primary last September so it's on track so far.

There are always ways of sorting the childcare and I can't believe it would be the same as independent school fees- really? Surely that would be a full time Nanny that you don't need....

Sometimes the after school clubs tell you they are jam packed, then miracously a space appears- people change arrangements all the time, worth putting your child on their waiting list now. Also, uou can get a list of childminders from your council and you will probably find they do drop offs/pick ups for working parents at convenient times. And then the childminder can take your kids to a lovely green space, sorted, affordable child care and healthy after school activity making up for lack at school.

Given that you have been offered an outstanding state place, I would go with the state school.

I have DS at an outstanding state and DD at private, there is a far bigger range of after school clubs and extra-curricular stuff at DS's state school once they get into year 1, presumably because there are enough children to fill spaces if they offer more than one club a night, where as at DDs there aren't so it's just not worth running that many clubs, ime a lot of after school/lunchtime clubs in both state and Private schools aren't open to the youngest children but a child in Reception is generally too tired for much in the way of clubs anyway.

A childminder should be cheaper than school fees and as you said school fees will leave you with next to no money spare it's worth remembering that at some schools there are a lot of extras to pay, DD's been back at school 3 days and on top of the terms school fees I've had to pay £71 in extra bits, between now and half term (in a month) we have another 3 events I'll need to pay bits for, a costume to buy/make and probably something else I've forgotten about, or that the teachers haven't told us about yet, there will probably also be a list of craft stuff for me to go and buy on Monday (or at least there's been one at the beginning of each half term so far) and I think there's another school trip coming up, none of our trips have been massively expensive but there are a lot of them and with 3 children that will add up pretty quickly.

Also it depends on the school how many of these extras are really optional, at DDs school everybody does certain clubs and whilst I could say no she would literally be the only child in her class not doing them which seems a bit unfair, a lot of the other extras are actually for lessons/things that happen during school hours so are not optional, trips, for example, nearly always come with a note saying 'all children are expected to attend as there will be class work related to the trip'.

Uniform is expensive too, especially if your school insists on stupid colour tights that nobody stocks and ridiculously expensive hats/blazers, or you aren't lucky enough to make friends with parents of older children (although at DD's school no one gives hand-me-downs anyway as they can sell the uniforms to the school 2nd hand shop).

The independent school includes most of the clubs (before, lunch and after) for free, although there's not all that much available at Reception age. The only charged-for extras are languages at Reception (free from yr2), private music tuition and some specialist stuff like martial arts.
There are several independent schools in this area and this one is in the middle for fees, but much more is included than any of the others and they're quite nice about paying fees in instalments, rather than term blocks.
There is an organised second-hand uniform sale each year/term.
So I think that the main extras will be non-club afterschool care through until 6 (not needed if they're doing a club, although these finish at 5.15), lunches which are a compulsory £250 per term per child on top and that 'stuff' which never appears in the brochure, but which you always end up having to pay for.

We don't know all that much about the local school because it is almost impossible to speak to anyone or visit. So we know it's 'Outstanding' whatever that means and that it's local.

Oh and the main school colour is navy - so not 'out there' in terms of ability to source tights. The uniform stockist doesn't even offer tights! But we will have to get a school-specific coat, which means they will each need two coats (d'oh).

Our village has an outstanding state primary. It has been outstanding for several years and the results have also been outstanding for several years. Loads of children who now go to private secondary schools went to the village primary because there was no need to waste money on private education. We also have several childminders in the village who take children for before and after school care. Is this an option for you?

Childminders are in rather short supply round here, unfortunately! Also, with 3, we have to find one with no current mindees (I think the limit is 3?).

send them to a state primary, employ either a part-time nanny or a full-time nanny/housekeeper to make your lives as stress-free as possible. How on earth would you manage the private school holidays/ sudden sick days etc without a nanny?

Not sure how all your 3 kids are starting school at the same time anyway, unless you have triplets? Or are they in nursery atm? In which case take the younger two out of nursery, save fees there, and the nanny could look after them.

Don't worry about them getting lost in the system, this doesn't happen at well-run state primaries, ime.

Bear in mind what was said upthread about staggered reception starting hours.

I've seen childminders with more than 3, I thought the ratios got bigger as the children get older. Am sure someone will know! That sounds a lot for school lunch. I think a lot of parents do get sold on the wrap around care approach, one stop shop, but you will pay a lot more for this convenience (in school fees). Why don't you turn up to the outstanding school's Summer Fete or some such publicish event. Then just get the vibe and eaves drop/be brave and speak to some parents. Push again for a visit, or ask around in your community to find parents, people are normally really happy to chat about the school their kids go to, especially if it's really good (or really bad!).

Have thought of another "solution" for you. Send 2 of your kids to the state school, send one to the independent. See how they all get on and swap accordingly.
Downside- very complicated childcare!
Upside, much cheaper, you get to find out by first hand experience how things are. I do know one family here with kids at different schools, 2 boys at independent, girl at state. Curious thing about your post, how could you get all three kids into an oversubscribed primary unless, as pp said they are triplets in YR? Maybe they are?

Ah, in which case it sounds like the extras at the independent you are looking at are no where near as bad as DD's, so it might be less of an issue. Have you met any parents there who could give you an idea of what extras there might be that aren't in the brochure?

If the coats are a set style rather than ones with logos you can sometimes find them a lot cheaper online as quite often there's more than one school that uses them.

We have two who're starting this year and one next year (very close together!), the third will definitely get in, so I am treating them as though they already have their place.
PastSelly - thanks for that link - researching now. The rating is a few years old, I believe although nothing major has changed there since.

But then what is childcare right now? And what will be childcare for the third child for yr, because that surely impacts?