Have I got grounds to appeal

[sleepyhorse]

Hi, my ds2 didn't get his first choice, he's been offered 2nd choice where his older sibling goes. His older sibling has special educational needs (he has a statement) and is on an ARP at this school and this is the only reason we send him there. His school are no longer able to meet his needs as his problems are quite complex and it's looking like he has autism so with the support of his current school we are in the process of trying to get him into a more specialised school with an ASD provision that's in a different town and apparently he will get picked up in a taxi everyday. To start this September.

However we didn't know any of this at the time of school applications for my younger son and the fact that older sibling is going to be leaving at the end of the summer term, they are not going to be in the same school anyway - obviously the LEA have offered younger son 2nd choice school based on the fact that that's where older sibling currently is.

It's annoying because a couple of years ago before we realised ds1 had special needs he was offered a place at ds2's 1st choice school but we changed last minute when the educational phychologist came in and recommended the school with the ARP. So we feel that if it wasn't for ds1's special needs then ds2 would have been offered a place at 1st choice. We don 't feel this is fair on ds2 as he shouldn't be missing out on opportunities just because of his brothers problems.

Friends have told us we should appeal but I don't know if our case is strong enough? Would really appreciate any advice? Do we have grounds to appeal?

Sorry this is so long. Thanks for reading.

That's not why they offered you that school, exactly.

If you had been high enough up the list for School 1, you would have been offered that school regardless of your links to School 2.

Surely, if you met the criteria you would have been awarded a place for your ds2 at the first choice school? The admissions team don't override your order of preference because of the knowledge they have about your older child.

You can't appeal on the grounds that, if ds1 had been at your first choice, you'd've had a sibling link there.

Go on the waiting list for your first choice though.

Ruthless - children who have older siblings at 1st choice school are going to get priority over someone that doesn't. My point is that my younger son shouldn't be judged on his older brothers school situation as his case and circumstances are very different. He is an individual in his own right and shouldn't miss out because of his brother's needs.,

They haven't offered you second choice because of where his sibling is.

If you qualified for your first choice school, you would have been offered it. They didn't skip to no. 2 based on a sibling link.

So really your appeal would be that if you had known what circumstances would be now, you'd have chosen school 1 for your DS1 and there would now be a sibling link for DS2 to get in. I'm afraid that's not a runner as appeals go.

By the way, when you don't get your first choice school, your friends always tell you to appeal. Mine did, even though I had no basis whatsoever, we just didn't live quite close enough that year. Very few people understand appeals and think it is just like 'asking again'.

Treating him as an individual means he gets no sibling preference then - which is the position he was in for the application to your first choice and so didn't get a place.

They haven't offered you second choice because of where his sibling is.

If you qualified for your first choice school, you would have been offered it. They didn't skip to no. 2 based on a sibling link.

So really your appeal would be that if you had known what circumstances would be now, you'd have chosen school 1 for your DS1 and there would now be a sibling link for DS2 to get in. I'm afraid that's not a runner as appeals go.

By the way, when you don't get your first choice school, your friends always tell you to appeal. Mine did, even though I had no basis whatsoever, we just didn't live quite close enough that year. Very few people understand appeals and think it is just like 'asking again'.

Sorry for the cross post.

But you aren't asking for him to be treated as an individual. That is exactly how he has been treated. You are asking for him to be treated as a sibling, but with the benefit of a crystal ball as to how, with the benefit of hindsight, you think you should have decided for his sibling.

Sleepy that isn't actually true.

You are right that if your first choice school had sibling priority then siblings of current pupils will get the place above those without siblings in the school. However, if your DS was high enough up the criteria to qualify for a place for your first choice school, he would have been given a place.
The council can't and won't say 'Oh sleepy boy won't mind going to preference two because his brother goes there...'

I'm not sure what your grounds for appealing are. Plenty of children will not have got into their first choice of school - which is what has happened to your DS - so are you suggesting that that in itself is a reason for appealing? None of what you say about your older DS seems as if it will have been in any way relevant to the decision about which school place your DS was offered.

The sibling criteria only comes into play when you request a place for your child...
You didn't qualify for a place at your first choice school; the admissions office would most assuredly not have decided to override your choice for you.

Our 1st choice school is our catchment. It is much closer than 2nd choice school. Catchment and sibling are given priority and obviously it makes sense to have siblings in the same school and I do feel that's why he has been offered 2nd choice school as that's where his brother is. And I do understand this. But his older brother is leaving so they aren't going to be at same school anyway. If our case isn't strong enough then I guess I will just have to put him on waiting list. Thanks for your advice.

"Very few people understand appeals and think it is just like 'asking again'." I like that phrase Penguin.

I agree, many of the parents I have spoken to in RL see appeals as "I didn't get exactly what I want so I'll ask again by appealing", with no real grounds for appeal or understanding of why their children didn't get a place. I realise how frustrating it is not getting your first choice, but we (as a school) can only fit a certain number of children in and every year we do have a good proportion of disappointed parents. It is sad, but necessary fact of life, as we are cramped, to say the least, with 30 in every class.

I'm not going to be unprofessional and mention much here, but I have seen some very amusing "grounds for appeal" letters and conversations with local parents of my very over-subscribed primary school. Just a couple of examples - "I don't like the uniform of X school she's been allocated, she suits the blue of your uniform much better", "But my husband is a doctor, you need children from doctor's families at your school because he's bound to be top of the class".

OP, he isn't being judged on his brother's situation except in relation to School 2. In fact, it's quite possible that without the sibling link he wouldn't have got into School 2 either.

Councils can't look at individual cases - it would be catastrophically unfair and totally illegal to apply anything but the previously published, moderated criteria.

They haven't allocated him a school based on where his brother is. It's a computer programme. They input all the data and the computer spews out which school he qualifies for. There isn't someone in an office who has decides to overrule school one to put him in the same school as his brother. If he qualified for school one, and that was first preference on your form, he'd have been allocated school one.

He can't have been high enough up priority list for choice 1 of he would have got it. Possibly too many in catchment area??? That would not be unusual. He would have been high up list for choice 2, so got that instead. I can't see any grounds for appeal.

Cross posted with you. No, you really don't understand the process.

"I do feel that's why he has been offered 2nd choice school as that's where his brother is" - Yes that is maybe why you were allocated second choice rather than third choice or lower. But it is totally wrong to think that is why you didn't get first choice on your list, that is not how the system operates.

Why do you feel that is the case? If you have strong evidence that someone that is the same priority as you (e.g. catchment area and no sibling link) has a place at your first choice school and they live further from the school to you, yes enquire further. But other than that your logic is flawed.

"obviously it makes sense to have siblings in the same school and I do feel that's why he has been offered 2nd choice school as that's where his brother is."
no, no and no again! It simply isn't like that. If you appealed and I was on the panel and you told me that, I'd explain that admissions doesn't work like that. I promise you. It has been offered because on your application firm l form, by putting that school 2nd,you said "if he can't have our catchment school, this is the school I want. "

As others have said, if there was a place at the 1st school for a child who lives as close as your DC2 does, you'd have got that even if your DC1 was at a different school. They didn't go for your second because your DC1 is there, you didn't get the first because you were too low down on the list.

The way it works, all the people who have applied for a school (be it as first, second, third) as ranked in order according to the criteria of the school. so imagine if there are 60 places and 100 applicates, 20 of them siblings (no other criteria for this example to keep it easy!), then 1-20 places on the list will be siblings (based off distance within that group), then the rest on distance from school in places 21 - 100. The first 60 of those will be offered a place. However, if some of those top 60 children have actually put that school as their 2nd or 3rd choice and are high enough up the list on their 1st (or 2nd) school list, they'll get an offer on their first school and be removed off this particular school list and everyone else moves up a place, until the top 60 places are filled.

In your case, you weren't high enough up the list on school 1 to get your DC2 in, you would be graded on that list purely off your DC2's own application at that school, regardless of where else you'd put on your other 3 options. With the sibling link, you are therefore high enough up on the list for school 2, but if you'd got school 1, you'd just disappear off the list for school 2.

Appealing isn't like asking again, you have to say they applied the criteria wrong, and it doesn't sound like they did. Your DC2 doesn't have a sibling at school1, so is just judged like an only child/a child without a sibling in primary school, purely off distance, and this year you live too far away.

If you are very close to school 1 and think you have only just missed out on distance (which it sounds like if DC1 would have got a place when he went), then go on the wait list, other people will move about, some will go private and turn down places, some will go on wait lists for other schools and drop off your preferred school list.

BTW - I know it's shit this year, DC1 didn't get his first choice school, we are 0.6 miles away, last year they offered places to children 0.9 miles away, it should be our 'catchment' school, but this year there's a lot of siblings and generally a lot more children applying than last year. There's 90 places at my first choice school, but apparently some people who lived 0.5 miles away didn't get a place, when it comes to wait listing, I can't imagine we'd be close to the top of that list either, but will fill out the form in hope. If I was you, I'd wait list and call the school1 and ask how far away did they offer to, so you'll know how close you are to missing out. You might only need 1 or 2 DCs to go private or move away.

I do understand what you are saying as in if DS1 didn't have SEN he would be at school 1 and therefore DS2 would have had sibling priority to get in but I can't see how this could be used as a grounds for appeal. lots of people with older children with SEN or additional needs would have the same issue.

As it is he was treated as a individual applicant for school 1 and didn't get a place but qualified for school 2 either as a sibling or because he met other criteria too.

But you can't on 1 hand say you want him to be treated as an individual and not be impacted by his brother but then say its not fair that he didn't get into school 1 because of his brother when the reason he didn't get in is because he was treated as an individual.