Teacher pushing back with regard to reception reading books - how do I avoid an annoying exchange with her?

[Quangle]

So DS is 4 - youngest in the class. But holding his own in Reception and doing well. He was sent home in November with some level 3 books which seemed about right and obviously since then there's been lots of work at home and at school so he's now consolidated at that level or a bit higher (we use the songbirds ones at home and he's happy working through level 4 with me but that's probably only because we ran out of level 3 stories).

At some point after November the books from school went back down to level 2 - no idea why and some of them only have 16 words in the whole book and he's past that. I put the odd comment in the book journal "DS read this fluently - could the levels be reassessed?" over the months but nothing happened and the books continued to be too simple. New reception teacher then arrives at half term and level 2 continues. I mention again this week "could DS go back to level 3 - he's easily managing these books?" and get back a message "I have sent home more level 2 books - he can go up when he has read ALL the level 2 books" (her caps!).

My problem is, how do you push back against the pointless pushing back without being an arse? I've had children in the school for 4 years and have never been into school other than for parents' meetings so I'm not the painful pushy mum but now I realise I'm bad at getting my message across.

I know this seems like a tiny issue but because DS is so young (and weirdly, there are no other summer babies in the class) and so not top of the class (in an academic school) but also quite well behaved so not calling attention to himself in other ways, I don't want him to be invisible to her.

You can get not-so-stupid non-reading books that are actually quite good. Mick Inkpen writes them.

If you're going to spend a fortune on non books you might as well find some good ones.

DS read Floppy Floppy and War and Peace tonight and enjoyed them both

Laughed at this! Also agree with the poster who said there isn't any point arguing about reading levels which I think is probably where I am, having read the whole thread and taken on board all the advice.

I have been here before (DD is 7 and a really accomplished reader and comprehender and whatever other skill you want to demand of her but was still slogging pointlessly through the levels until recently). My experience with her was that there was a certain defensiveness at school on this topic. This thread and the other threads reinforce that - references to "barking at text" and "do they really understand what they are reading?" and all that. As I think I made clear in my posts - no DS is not barking at text and yes he understands it and can talk about it. So yes he really can read at this level.

I understand how tiresome it must be for teachers to have to deal with 30 individual children and worse their parents' demands and I really try not to be a part of that pushy clique. Given that I'm really not pushy at all, I'm certain that my observations (that DS can read and comprehend at this level) are correct. But even thinking that, let alone saying it to a teacher, seems in some way to be rude, or undermining or something.

Hence my genuine question - is there a non-annoying way of saying this to teachers? The answer seems to be no. TBH I'm happy with that as an answer. I can't rephrase it in a better way so we'll just work around it. We can (and do) read other books. It just all seems a bit....pointless. All that careful writing in the reading record and all that - makes it a bit of a charade. Anyway, not the end of the world. He is making good progress and the teachers are doing a good job - perhaps I am expecting too much anyway and if the job is to get him reading, we are getting there. thanks all for your thoughts.

You will see from many teachers responses ( on here)

Where? could you point them out BornFreeButinChains?

It isn't tiresome in the slightest for teachers to deal with 30 individuals Quangle children should be allocated appropriate books for their needs.

Quangle, here are my hints on how to be a pushy fully engaged parent:

1. do it in person - use the book to arrange a meeting, but written notes don't have the nuances of speech needed
2. don't tell the teacher he/she is wrong and never tell them how to teach (even if you think you could do it better!) 'I'm just a bit worried about him getting bored by these books... How could I make them more interesting?'
3. always try to phrase it as them helping you out 'I think I've got a bit confused, I'm sure he used to be on level 2... Do you know what's happened at all?'
4. ask a lot of questions rather than demanding change 'so is the idea that we do the more challenging reading at home rather than we these books?'
5. the best way to get what you want/your child needs is to genuinely get the teacher to suggest a way forward and explain and justify without them feeling defensive - allow them the opportunity to really think about what your child needs

Plan lots of questions and more for if he/she is still pushing back and be very clear on the things you want the teacher to understand. From these posts here I would think that would be a) he is getting bored, b) he is now reading easier books than the school gave him before, c) he has good understanding and can ask/answer questions about what he has read and d) he is reading harder books fluently at home.

It is a fine line between being pushy mum who thinks she knows more than trained professionals and concerned mum who is ensuring her child gets a fair look in.

Hope that helps!

Yes, do point us in the direction of those posts, Bornfree - those things are actually extremely un-MNteacher-like, I would say.

babybouncer

Doesn't all that suggest that there's a point to it all?

Surely, if the mum is that worried, it's far less trouble to just take care of the reading policy herself. The best way to push a rock up hill is to go to the cafe and forget all about it.

Definitely not worth the hassle of trying to tell a teacher she doesn't know her job, especially given that a child will benefit from reading their own books at home anyway.

I would let the school get on with it and instead use a free online biff/chip reading scheme at reading owls. Google it.

If the school didn't send reading books home and didn't ask for/demand parental input, then the idea of letting the school get on with it would (probably) suit most people.

But schools do ask and some schools seem to get upset when the parents reply to what has been asked!

babybouncer that is really helpful - will definitely rehearse some of this before parents' evening.

I think bornfree is referencing some of the posts on another thread which was basically about this thread about "barking at text" and stuff. It is exactly the sort of defensiveness I've come across before and it is hard because I try very hard not to be aggressive (obviously) but you still get defensive responses. Particularly on literacy actually - not in other areas so much.

It would be nice to find a middle way between parents having to bow to the whim of every pushy parent going and assuming that every parent is a lying (yes this is the word that was used!) idiot who, by asking for levels to be reassessed, clearly thinks their 4 year old is actually a free reader!

I think it's not possible to find a middle way sometimes. But, the thing is, if the child can read really well, it isn't necessary either. The parent can just take the stupid scheme books and throw them in the bin.

I don't think asking a question about whether a reading level is correct is telling a teacher she doesn't know her job. What idiot teacher would react that way?

Definitely not worth the hassle of trying to tell a teacher she doesn't know her job, especially given that a child will benefit from reading their own books at home anyway.

These schemes usually have a set of phonics sounds and high frequency words, does the child know all the for the current level? If so, with 30 children the teacher may not have picked up on the reading level being behind. No one would attack her for that, unless she couldn't validate when challenged

If the mum is getting into trading opinions on which child knows which sounds applicable to which level books and which child doesn't then she is right in the middle of telling the teacher how to do her job territory!!!

(It's not an argument any mum on earth is ever going to win, even if she actually wrote the reading scheme in question.)

well, I think it depends on the teacher. Most emotionally intelligent professional teachers will look apon the mother as doing her job and not take it as a criticism.

The problem is that the teacher has obviously put the child back some reading levels for a reason. OK, maybe the wrong reasons (who knows) but a reason.

If she's a kind teacher (who doesn't mind the odd parental argument) maybe she will even explain her reasons carefully to the mother (probably not.) But anyway, the reasons are still going to be there. And the chances are that the teacher has discussed the move with other members of staff, possibly some kind of manager and the literacy coordinator, maybe.

It may not be reasonable for mum to come in, say I think my child should have a different book level, and get one. But I think the teacher really should explain to the OP what the problem is, rather than put the child back two levels and let the mother get on with it.

If I was the OP I'd be looking for my own solutions until at least next year and next year's teacher, because this teacher clearly perceives some kind of reading issue (whether or not it's real and whether or not it's still there after mum's recent hard work.) My guess is that mum rocking up at the school and saying Hey, my child ought to be on a higher reading level!

is not going to change the teacher's perception of the problem (even if mum is actually correct.) The teacher would have to test the child and satisfy herself that the reading level is wrong. (And is she willing to do that?)

I don't know. Maybe. But lots of teachers seem to resent parents telling them to reassess things.

But lots of teachers seem to resent parents telling them to reassess things.
In a generalised sense that is true of many jobs though - I get grumpy when people send me stroppy emails that they think something could be done better as the current situation is rubbish and I need to deal with their demand NOW, but I am more likely to look at it favourably, if a person emails in politely and asks if it is possible to change the way X/Y/Z is displayed on the screen when/if it is convenient.
I consider myself lucky at the boys current school that I do believe that teachers are on top of reading levels/communication with parents, having had DSs at a different school where things were appalling. Teachers have always been happy to discuss my children's progress in a helpful manner, explaining why they are on a particular reading band and what they are working on. Yet I know parents who think that our teachers could do more and complain regularly who don't seem to be able to have the same level of communication, so presumably in this case it is the way the parents go about it that puts peoples backs up, not that they are asking in the first place.

quangle

go at it from a different angle; that you are worried about him in school as I said before. Your more than happy to read the books but could they just reassure you that he is reading confidently in class, as he does at home, as your worried because he is reading level 4 well at home.

non confrontational.

reading levels has been a bug bear of mine and I have the learned the hard way no matter what you say your child can read and understand (on here) some people don't listen and insist your child is barking at text and cannot understand it.

I think bornfree is referencing some of the posts on another thread which was basically about this thread about "barking at text" and stuff.

Would really like to see that thread - again, teachers on MN tend not to give those kinds of answers and we pounce if they do

Quangle,

BTW not just another thread but many many threads.

I want to air my concerns and I would ideally like helpful solutions or ideas. Its getting so tiresome now, when parents come on and say its something they are concerned about, and its quite obvious the child can read what they say they can, and well and understand comprehension but there is a group on here which keep saying the same old things, the parent must be wrong, pushy, the child is barking like a dog, and on and on.

Stifling.

Feenie, Hello sweetie, I have been watching this topic for a long while now, I can assure you they do. Its many threads.

Its stiffling and its closing down debate.

If you let me know which ones, I would be keen to discuss them with the posters concerned.

But please don't call me sweetie - you've made me feel quite ill.

bornfree, I'm not sure how long the "don't be daft, your child cant read, you only think she can..." type arguments last for.

To bring it up in the first place (even on every thread) is fair enough. After all, it really could be true. Any mum's child might be illiterate and the deluded mother might think her child is a misunderstood genius.

But (like any other invalid argument) there is a logical sequence which refutes the argument. (And it's up to the mother in question to put the argument forward, if she feels like it.)

DS2 is in reception. His school send him absolutely dire books that he really isn't interested in reading. Lots of them are books that seem to have virtually no words that are decidable with the phonics taught alongside stage 1+ and 2. Some of the non-fiction stage 1+ ort books are absolutely awful for this. The one about wheels was a low point, particularly for a child who was equipped to decode simple cvc, ccvc and cvcc words only. Often DS simply memorises the repeated phrase when they read it at school and just recites the book at me not actually looking at the pages is a big give away.

I'm not really sure what the value in these is supposed to be. I mentioned that DS really doesn't enjoy the absent to minimal stories in these books the first time but that it's impossible to get him to read them at all by Wednesday (the books are changed weekly). So they now give us two books he doesn't enjoy a week. Apparently they want to encouraged repetition to improve comprehension etc, but Ds has usually grasped that the hamster has run off after reading it once on the first page, never mind seven times (this week's thrilling tale from project x). There isn't much scope for discussion when the story is very minimal.

What I do is to read books he enjoys more at home. He can read the level 3 and 4 songbirds books and genuinely seems to like the stories. And he chats away about them/reenacts the story for me etc. I just write in the book what he's actually read and comment on that and pay no more than lip service to what comes home in the book bag. Then I read how to train your dragon to him (he's obsessed) and we talk about that. I'm not really all that worried about what level the school have him on so long as he's actually learning to read.

In fact, he often finds the books we have at home easier than the ones from school because the words are almost all decodeable with the phonics rules he knows (and he enjoys learning new rules and applying them). Actually, I'm pretty sure that the huge number of words the reading scheme books he's getting at school seem to be presenting as sight vocabulary is not doing him much good. It's encouraging him to guess at words rather than trying to sound them out. I have to keep encouraging him to use his phonics to work out the words in the books we have at home rather than guessing based on the first letter, the picture or the word he's anticipating.