Primary, pros and cons of school size

[jackierussell]

We will be choosing a primary this year for the first time and are probably going to have the option of either a small (68) school or a larger school (205). We can see the benefit of the small school it's in our village and walkable but are worried that's a very small pool for friendships etc. the larger school is also pretty close and ofsteds both good. Any experience / advice would be good. Thanks

A lot of people seem to equate small schools with being good schools. I have taught in many kinds of schools over the years and personally think bigger schools have more to offer.

In a big school, disruptive pupils can be dispersed throughout classes more easily. Recently I worked in a village school with 3 classes and 2 children with severe behaviour needs who had to be with the same teacher for 3 years.

There''s more of a range of skills amongst teachers in bigger schools too, I and my DCs both went to the same large school where I now teach, so maybe I'm a bit biased!

Big school definitely. My dd had the option of a small school with 10 intake per year, but when you consider half is likely to be boys that means only four close fiends. Yes they can be friends with other year groups etc but it puts a lot of pressure on those four to get along! If one of those children takes a dislike to your child etc (and you can't force kids to get along) then you dc will have them around for years! In a larger school it wouldn't matter. Dd friends with all 60 in her year and knows many of the 450 others upto year 6! It means that they often learn to get along with loads of kids rather than having one or two best friends which IME can only be a good thing.

Also if they don't all lead onto the next secondary together, imagine they could go alone.

We chose a larger school with 60 intake and its fab. They have loads on offer, mix classes around every few years etc according to behaviour, to balance needs etc. so when dd goes to secondary she will know half of that intake already which is a huge advantage.

I wouldn't let the after school activities influence, mine simply go to the brownies and dance clubs attached to the school area, not our village so no problem at all.

Oh if its a small school, it doesn't mean they'll be small classes as they'll probably mix them. If can also alter in smaller intake years. E.g. Our local school takes 20 but usually only 10 apply. They run classes of mixed groups such as R/year 1, Y2/3 and so on. During low intakes those classes are not balanced, so the may be 7 reception with 15 year 1 etc. things to consider!

I would only recommend a really small school for a child of genuine middle ability.

Differentiating e.g. within a R-Yr2 class [with an intake of 10, there will usually be a R-Y2 class of 30, a Yr 3-4 and a Yr 5-6 but there may be other ways of doing it depending on numbers in each year group] is hard enough for a single teacher to manage (3 year age spread, EYFS + KS1) and plan for.

If you have e.g. a very able child, then that's fine in Reception and year 1, as they simply work with the next year group up in many instances (check - some schools teach in rigid year groups rather than mixed year ability groups or whole class) even in a mixed age class, but in yr 2, there simply isn't the planning and teaching capacity in the day in many cases to make the extra differentiation for an really able child - or conversely a very much less able yr R.

Small school doeas not necessarily mean small classes, also. The largest class I have ever taught - 35 - was in a very small school, but where inflexibility of accommodation / unusual year group sizes made one class very big indeed.

Also, if you are of 'not average' ability, the probability of finding others of like ability in your year group is lower in a small school. In DS's fuist school (intake of 20), he was a complete outlier, working virtually alone. In his next school, 60 intake, there was simply much greater statistical likelihood of him having near-peers.

Also, in a larger school, if the child has a particular issue or a particular strength, then there is much more likely to be a genuine 'specialist' who might be able to help - so a TA or teaxcher who is well up on specific interventions, or a science co-ordinator who is a scientist not the person who does science plus RE plus ICT plus history lus geography because there are simply not enough people for the jobs to go rouynd...

Thanks everyone it's really helpful to have the input, we have a few months until the application is to be made so will do the visits and speak to pre school, other parents and take it from there, interesting points made about ability so will think about that too.

My DC's school is approx 230 and I think it's a good size. Small enough to be friendly but big enough for a choice of friendships.

We moved across country from a 450+ school to a small village school with just over 30 (split into 2 classes, KS1 and KS2) when DS1 and DD were in Y3 and Y1 so have experience of both. DS1 had struggled in the bigger school, mainly socially - never felt 'good' enough to join in with football in the playground, got very overwhelmed in the cloakroom, found lunchtime a huge challenge (due to sheer number of children in an enclosed space + poor acoustics) - but he is thriving socially at the smaller school. Plays football every chance he gets and has a lovely group of friends from Y2 to Y6. At the bigger school there were lots of clubs, but places were limited and there were waiting lists of over 2 years! At the smaller school they all get the chance to join any clubs they like - and surprisingly the variety on offer is better than the bigger school (which focussed mainly on sports). One thing that all parents seem to feel is that the nurturing 'family' environment is great for their social confidence. Hiding in the chorus line isn't an option in school plays - from Y3 onwards they all have speaking parts! They also learn to mentor the younger ones and benefit from working in groups with older children. DD is currently in Y2 and is going into the older class for maths, but because they all move about across groups anyway it's really not a big deal and she has not found it at all daunting. We feel that she is being stretched adequately, in a non-pressurised way.
Interesting what posters upthread have said about larger schools being better for friendships.... I can definitely see that, in theory, and maybe we were just unlucky but our old school was very cliquey (both children and parents), with lots of falling out and 'you're not allowed to play with us today' type stuff (yep, children and parents!). Not that it affected me or mine personally so much, was just very aware of it in the playground and at school events. But in the smaller school, although there are still scuffles and flounces they have no choice but to address their issues and differences and work through them, which I personally feel is a good life skill to learn. And as someone else said there are usually sports/music clubs and Beavers etc. outside school where they can make other friends.
If I had to identify some negatives of the smaller school, I would say (1) limited outside space and the main one: (2) that they are stuck with the same teacher for four years through the whole of KS2. I am also feeling nervous already about the prospect of DS1 making the transition to a huge secondary, but they all seem to manage it!
Of course it depends hugely on the individual schools, on the year group demographics/dynamics, and to a certain extent on the personality of DCs. Presumably you've visited both schools already... Do you know parents already at either/both? Does your DC have friends who will be going to both? Do you have a gut feeling about where your DC will be happiest? Anyway, just wanted to share our experience FWIW and wish you luck with the decision-making!

Oops, sorry, that was a bit long-winded

Also meant to add: some children in our village do attend the primary in the next village along, which is bigger (and means a car journey) - for various reasons, mainly better facilities. But the children are still part of the same community and see each other at village events, etc. So in a way they have the advantage of a bigger pool of friends at school as well as local friends.

Wow! 450 is huge! In my area 200 - 240 is the norm. These are either 2-form entry infant schools transferring to 2-form junior schools or 1-form entry 4 - 11 schools. These are the 'big' schools. The 'small' schools are the 100 max, normally church schools for ages 4 - 11. I can't imagine a 450 pupil primary school! Assemblies must be a nightmare!

jodie tbh the kids tend not to notice the size! What happens in ours is that the infants have their own playground, outside play zone, assemblies and dining area so almost exist separately even though on same site. They see each other across the sites as share certain rooms and facilities but really dd didnt see much of the other junior building until she actually joined the juniors. Same way as I imagine when they go to secondary, that they only see the areas they actually frequent iyswim!

Ours is a full primary though not separate infant or junior schools

Most primaries round here are 2-form entry - so 420 when full, 450 if there is a bulge class.

In our experience, it is ideal (DS's 140 pupil initial school was a disaster] - but I speak as a parent of 'outliers' in terms of ability, so for DC to have a reasonable peer group, the overall number needs to be quite large.

I think they're both small. 68 would be too small for me personally...I like the variety in staff that a bigger school would bring.

Having said that one choice for my daughter was 800!!!
Too big!! Couldn't imagine sending her aged 4 to be amongst so many children- she wouldn't be an individual just a name. There is a school that a friend works at which is 4 form entry!!!

Have you visited them both. Revisit them again

200 is a huge primary round here. DDs at 110-85 is bigger than most.

Having driven to nursery and school for 11 years I know how much me and the DDs would have benefited both in terms of exercise and making friends if we could have walked.

DN was the only girl in her year (she swapped to a bigger school) hated it and is back at her tiny school (2 classes).
DN is a real live wire, I'm sure she'd have been fine if she had always gone to her 200ish local school, but she started at the same school as her brother.

He was very quiet as a small boy, both by nature and necessity as DBIL had heart problems and major surgery while he was small. This was a total success and his sister has never not had to jump on daddy!

I guess living in an urban area I didn't realise such small schools existed, my children went to a three-form infant (270 pupils) then a three form junior (360ish pupils) neither of which actually felt particularly big.

Even with a big school they need someone from the secondary maths department to teach the handful of pupils each year who are working at level 6 and beyond (although that doesn't appear to be a problem in other subjects).

Are the secondary schools the small schools feed into smaller too? The secondaries here tend to be about 1000 pupils (Y7-11).

I was moved from a biggish junior school to a tiny village school when I was 8 and we moved house, I hated it. Nowhere to turn if you fell out with a friend, cliquey families, lack of facilities, stuck with the same teacher for 3 years, I was "brainy" and stuck out like a sore thumb in a class of 18 covering three school years. Moved to a 4 form school for the last year and it was the most enormous relief.

My DCs go to a single form primary of about 200 pupils which is far better, still small enough that everyone knows each other but lots of different friends, good facilities, staff with a good variety of expertise and skills.

My DD is at what we would call a middle sized school around here at 100 pupils (4 classes). We think it is perfect for her. Very very nurturing, and she has friends in all year groups, parents able to pop in for a chat when they wish, we know loads of parents, very friendly plenty of clubs open to all.

Socially, it is better for her to be in a small school as she is a very timid, quiet little girl. I cannot imagine her in a school of 400! (but they don't exist up here!).

The only downside I can forsee is the academics - she is in YR and doing some of the Yr1 work I think (mixed YR/Yr1 class). I wonder what might happen next year for example. However, for us, the social/emotional side is much more important than the academics - we will stretch her at home (both teachers )

So, personally I'd say go with the smaller one.

Some secondaries are smaller some aren't. Depends on geography and proximity of other senior schools.

Mine was about 12000 as is the DDs.

The far end of Cornwall and very rural bits of Herefordshire have 6-700 pupil secondaries. Main problem is small secondaries can't support sixth forms, leaving many 16-18 with very long and expensive journeys.

Small village schools around me work quite well up to the end of year 2, but even by then the girls are not really playing with the boys. The smaller schools definitely miss out on things like recorder groups which my DD started in Reception. If the children are older in the small school, they can really miss out on sports teams, orchestras, drama etc.

We had a bigger infant school, 90 per year, and it was excellent producing very confident children who did really well there. However a number of parents in our village went out of catchment to a small infant school but then transferred to the junior school at year 3. They were noticeably less confident. I think moving to a big secondary school from a tiny village school is more daunting. However, if your DCs are not musical, sporty or want a large circle of friends, then walk to the village school. It will be fine.

I don't think confidence has anything to do with school or year group size.

DD2's class had both one of the most and one of the least confident Y6's I have ever met. The girls in DD1's class were mostly quite quiet (she isn't).

IME you if you've met the child's parents you can take a fair guess at how outgoing their DCs will be.

Bullying, divorce and illness apart, the DCs who were willing to try anything at the end of reception still are in their teens.

Depending on where you live, all schools might be smallish or largesish, so you might not have much choice.
I agree that small in Infants is nice. Cosy is good at this stage.
Beyond infants, I would prefer more than 1 class per year. Others have mentioned the benefits socially and also being able to group pupils for some subjects according to ability (2 or more teachers, not just 1 having to go round wide ranging ability groups). Teachers also plan together in year groups and there is often scope to do things like PE as a year group. I just think 1 class limits the opportunities a bit.
Bigger means more staff and probably more extra curricular too. Bigger probably attracts more men teachers, which is a good thing.

When choosing a school initially, I was attracted to all through 4to11 schools. Now, I can actually see separate infants and juniors is good, as both are highly specialised in the age group they teach. Not all areas have this, but if you do, you often get the smaller infants and larger juniors...best of both.

We went for the small walkable school and it's perfect for my boys. The older two have left now but DS3 is thriving there. They're all quite sensitive boys and the small family atmosphere suits them. There are around 100 children in the school though DS3's year is quite big - there are more than 20 of them. DS2's year was the smallest ever with just 6 of them. I would suggest visiting both schools and seeing which one feels right for her.