Writing and phonics

[Notcontent]

Background is that I am a bit annoyed at dd's teacher who seemed to suggest that dd's spelling is not great because she needs to improve her knowledge of phonics.

Dd is 7 and her reading is great, as acknowledged by her teacher, but her writing is not as good as her reading. Before Christmas at meeting teacher said that her spelling is letting her down and gave me a sheet with the phonics sounds to practice with dd. But the fact is that there are so many exceptions to English spelling that a lot of it is just memory work. I think that needs to be acknowledged. We have been doing lots of writing at home and I think her spelling is pretty good actually.

I do agree that phonics helps with reading, and helps a bit with spelling, but that's not the whole story, is it?

Feeling bored, cg?

This thread is getting a bit long, but after repeated aspersions and misrepresentations by phonics evangelists, I want to make another comment.

Because of my foreign background and not starting to learn English until I was 14, after having already learned to read and write with the regular spellings of Lithuanian and Russian, I found learning to read and write English utterly mindboggling to begin with.

Years later, after having become a teacher of English and modern languages in Dorset and then having to retire at the age of 50 for health reasons, I got the leisure to investigate more closely what make learning to read and write exceptionally difficult.

As a teacher I had come to see that many English-born children found learning to read and write English even harder than I had done, including my own son. But what really drove me to investigate English spelling more closely was that my retirement coincided with renewed general interest in literacy in the 1990s, because several surveys here and the US had uncovered that roughly 1 in 5 adult were functionally illiterate.

Most media pundits were blaming this on poor teaching. But much worse than that, some educational 'experts' were claiming that the reason for higher literacy standards elsewhere in Europe was their greater use of phonics. - The difference between English spelling and other writing systems was completely ignored.

Of course they use nothing but phonics for teaching reading elsewhere in Europe: with phonically reliable systems, u would have to be insane to use anything. With just a few hundred exceptions, phonics works well for teaching writing too.

But English spelling is phonically unreliable: many letters have more than one sound (sound – soup) and nearly all sounds have more than one spelling. That's why phonics is of very limited use for teaching spelling:

(The figures in brackets show how many of the 7,000 most used English words which I have analysed use that spelling - and how many spell it differently.)

1. a: cat – plait, meringue (466 – 3)
2. a-e: plate – wait, weight, straight, great, table dahlia, fete (338 – 69)

-ain: rain – lane, vein, reign, champagne (39 – 19) -ay: play – they, weigh,ballet,cafe, matinee (35 – 20)

1. air: care – hair, bear, aerial, their, there, questionnaire (31-are – 27 other)
2. ar: car – are + (Southern Engl. bath) (138 – 1)
3. au: sauce – caught, bought,always, tall, crawl (44 au – 76 other)

-aw: saw – (0)- but in UK 11-aw + 40 awe, or, four, sore, war

1. b: bed (0)
2. ca/o/u: cat, cot, cut – character, kangaroo, queue (1022 – 33)

cr/cl: crab/ clot – chrome, chlorine (192 – 10) -c: lilac –stomach, anorak (89 – 9) -ck: neck –cheque, rec (62 – 6) k: kite/ kept – chemistry (124 – 7) -k: seek –unique (36 – 5) -sk: risk –disc, mosque (86 – 10) qu: quick – acquire, choir (78 – 4) x: fix – accept, except, exhibit (98 – 15)

1. ch: chest – cello (155 – 1)

-tch: clutch – much (24 – 7) 9 d: dad – add, blonde (1,010 – 3)

10. e: end– head, any, said, Wednesday, friend, leisure,
    leopard, bury (301 – 67)

11. er: her – turn, bird, learn, word, journey (70er – 124)

12. ee: eat– eel, even, ceiling, field, police,people,
    me, key,ski, debris, quay (152ea – 304)
    --y: jolly– trolley, movie, corgi (475 – 39)

13. f: fish– photo, stuff, rough (580 - 44)

14. g: garden– ghastly, guard (171– 28)

15. h: house– who (237 – 4)

16. i: ink– mystery, pretty, sieve, women, busy, build (421 – 53)

17. i-e: bite – might, style, mild, kind, eider, height, climb
    island indict sign (278 – 76)
    -y: my – high,pie, rye, buy, I, eye (17 – 14)

18. j: jam/ jog/ jug (0)
    jelly, jig – gentle, ginger (18 – 20)
    -ge: gorge (0)
    -dg: fidget– digit (29 – 11)

19. l: last– llama (1,945 – 1)
    20: m: mum– dumb, autumn (1,128 – 19)

20. n: nose– knot, gone, gnome, mnemonic (2,312 – 34)

21. -ng: ring (0) 22

22. o: on– cough, sausage, gone(357 – 5)
    want – wont (19 – 1); quarrel– quod (10 -1)

23. o-e: mole – bowl, roll, soul; old – mould
    boast, most, goes, mauve (171 – 100)
    -o: no –toe, dough, sew, cocoa, pharaoh, oh, depot (106 – 59)

24. oi: oil– oyster (29 –1)
    -oy: toy –buoy (12 – 1)

25. oo (long): food– rude, shrewd, move, group, fruit, truth, tomb,
    blue, do, shoe,through, manoeuvre (94 – 108)

26. oo (short): good– would, put, woman, courier (15 -21)

27. or: order– board, court; wart, quart– worn, quorn (188 – 16)
    -ore:more – soar, door, four, war, swore,abhor (23– 17)

    • (14 –aw/awe in UK)

28. ou: out– town (74 – 24);
    -ow: now – plough (11 – 4)

29. p: pin (0)

30. r: rug– rhubarb, write (1,670 – 27)

31. s: sun – centre,scene (138 – 49)
    -ce: face – case; fancy– fantasy (153 – 65)

32. sh: shop – chute, sure, moustache, liquorice (166 – 30)
    -tion: ignition– mission, pension, suspicion,fashion (216 – 81)

33. t: tap, pet – pterodactyl, two, debt (1,398 – 4)
    --te: delicate – democrat (52 – 3)

34. th (sharp): this (0)

35. th (soft): thing (0)

36. u: up– front, some, couple, blood (308 – 68)

37. u-e: cute – you,newt, neutral, suit, beauty, Tuesday, nuclear (137 – 21)
    -ue: cue –few, view,menu (20– 22)

38. v: van (0)
    -ve: have –spiv (116– 3) [80 with surplus –e]
    -v-: river– chivvy (73 – 7) – v/vv after short vowel

39. w: window– which (216 – 31)

40. y: yak– use (31 – 11)

41. z: zip– xylophone (16 – 1)
    -se: rose –froze (85– 33)
    wise– size (UK 31 – 3, US 11 – 22)

42. zh: -si-/-su-: vision, measure – azure (20 – 3)

43. Unstressed, unclear vowel sound (or schwa),
    occurring mainly in 8 endings and 2 prefixes:
    -able: loveable– credible(33 – 17)
    -ccle: bundle (2 consonants + -le for -l) (0)
    -al: vertical– novel, anvil, petrol (200+ – 32)
    -ary: ordinary– machinery, inventory, century,carpentry(37 – 55)
    -en: fasten– abandon, truncheon, orphan, goblin, certain (73 – 132)
    -ence: absence– balance (33 – 26)
    -ent: absent – pleasant (176 – 58)
    -er: father –author, armour, nectar, centre, injure,quota (UK 340/US 346 – 135/129)
    de-: decide – divide (57 – 29)
    in-: indulge – endure (73 – 30)

Consonant doubling rule for showing short, stressed vowels
merry (regular) – very(missing) – serrated(surplus)
(423 - 554 - 195)

This information is inconvenient to anyone who is in the business of making wild, unsubstantiated claims about English spelling and how to teach it, and so i get disparaged for providing it.
Masha Bell

Should have previewed before clicking 'post':
what makes learning to read and write exceptionally difficult ...

with phonically reliable systems, u would have to be insane to use anything else but phonics.

CGIt wasn't a personal attack. It was a critique of your attempt at poetry, or whatever you like to call it. If you choose to write this kind of stuff then surely you accept that you may receive comments on it?

I wasn't attacking you- I was commenting on your writing.

As for constructing an argument or valid points- I've done plenty of that which you chose to ignore.

bossy isn't a literary criticism I'm familiar with.

I liked your poems, CG.

They are quite hard to do. U are probably aware of The Chaos - www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j17/caos.php

Here are some of mine.

Many English spellings
are so dreadful
they make children fretful.
They rob them of leisure
and learning of pleasure.

U must be a bit of a nerd
if u don't find spellings like
bird, heard and word
absurd.

Looks like a head around sound to me, masha.

So you can dish it out CG but you can't take it?

Funny that.....

Has to make sense first, deary.

If you think someone asking you if you are always bossy is a personal attack, then you need to spend less time on MN and get out a bit more - love.

I was thinking more along the lines of how little it had to do with literary criticism.

Amazon produces an excellent selection of literary criticism guides. You should have a look when you get a chance.

But Masha, what you have written is incorrect. I don't understand why you have separated the k sounds (sections 6/7), why sk is separate from k - it is still a k sound just preceded by an s - and I cannot believe that none of the 7000 most common words use either a long or short th sound (sections 35/36?).

Because I have found those issues at a first glance, I struggle to believe the rest of the information you give is correct. I think this is why people don't like your lists, because they are so flawed.

Because she's saying that there are multiple methods of getting sk

sk
sc
and
squ

There are practically no words that end with -isc- like disc. This is a relatively new word for something that did not exist when English originated and that is one reason for it not conforming to the -ck or 'k pattern.

There are a few words that end in -sque - but hardly any and anyone who was learning these would check in a dictionary or spell check.

The 'rule' is that a k is used for a 'cu' sound at the end of word if preceded by a long vowel, and -ck is used for short vowels.

eg

look
cook
book

lick
stick
hack
stuck

This is why listening to the word and being able to identify long and short vowels is important.

There is also a logical explanation for the 'soft g' sound at the end of 'gorge'. G followed by an e is pronounced as a soft g like a j rather than a g in the word gun.

These are the tips and explanations that spelling experts teach children.

Masha's posts only go to show that she does not understand these. There are countless other examples in her lists but it would take all day to work through them.

Thankfully, when I am on my death bed I will feel some satisfaction in knowing that I have helped hundreds of children learn to spell, as well as pass their A level English ( thanks CG but no need for the Amazon suggestion.)

Whereas I wonder what Masha will feel? Wasting years of life trying to change something that is never ever going to happen.

I still really want to know how you get over the variations in English speech if you are going to devise a new spelling system.

You also have to think of Beaulieu and Arkansas.

The chances are that you don't. I don't think the myriad reasons against writing their dictionaries slowed either Johnson or Webster and we're all living with the consequences.

'squ' doesn't spell /sk/. It spells /skw/

Thankfully, when I am on my death bed I will feel some satisfaction in knowing that I have helped hundreds of children learn to spell, as well as pass their A level English

More power to my favourite biscuits!

I don't see how it's less helpful to say:

"sk is usually written sk" (and if it is relevant that some commonly used french words use "sque")

than "Ooh it could be anything really, there aren't really any rules, just go word by word".

Equally, there are loads of irregular French verbs - that doesn't make it less helpful to learn as a group the ones that follow similar/the same rules.

Galina

1. ca/o/u: cat, cot, cut – character, kangaroo, queue (1022 – 33)

cr/cl: crab/ clot – chrome, chlorine (192 – 10) -c: lilac –stomach, anorak (89 – 9) -ck: neck –cheque, rec (62 – 6) k: kite/ kept – chemistry (124 – 7) -k: seek –unique (36 – 5) -sk: risk –disc, mosque (86 – 10) qu: quick – acquire, choir (78 – 4) x: fix – accept, except, exhibit (98 – 15)

There are 9 main patterns for spelling the /k/ sound in English.
They are shown on the left and illustrated in the words before -

ca/o/u: cat, cot, cut –
cr/cl: crab/ clot –
-c: lilac –
-ck: neck –
k: kite/ kept –
-k: seek –
-sk: risk –
qu: quick –
x: fix –

i.e. before a,o, u with c, before i and e with k,
ck after short stressed vowels, k after long stressed vowels,
-c after unstressed vowels at the end of longer words,
/kw/ = qu, etc. (I am sure u can work out the other patterns for yourself.)

The figures in brackets show how many of the 7,000 words which i analysed use each pattern - and how many don't.

The sharp and soft /th/ sounds (this thing) are always spelt th. I have not found a single exception, although this practice is clearly unhelpful to beginning readers, especially foreign ones.

Merrymouse
Whyever would anyone want to 'devise a new spelling system' for English?

Reducing some of its worst irregularities - the ones that absorb masses of learning time for no good reason - would be good enough.

That's all that reforms in other countries have ever done, apart from Turkey which switched from the Arabic alphabet to Latin in 1929.

Which other countries have changed their spelling and when?

And how would you ensure ease of comprehension by maintaining the etymological roots?

So Beaulieu - I am might not have a clue how to say it, but at least I know it is probably quite pretty!

MaizieD :)
I was going to make the same point as you ( or is that 'u') about squ but I think MB's example was for the final sound in words - like mosque- rather than the initial sounds. She missed risque though - which is not the same as mosque.

In that case, it's 'que' ...

Noah Webster set out to vandalise the English language in 1800 and published his vandalised version (in dictionary form) in 1806. That is, in part, why American English differs from British English.