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Primary education

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Theories/Answers please: What accounts for the variations in what state schools offer children.

38 replies

answersonapostcard · 30/01/2014 09:41

As it says.

i am increasingly puzzled by the differences between state primary schools - not just the difference between, those, say, in the richer leafier suburbs of London and those in the inner city, but also between two schools within a mile of each other in the same city.

What accounts for these difference?

For example:

  • Why do some primary schools have proper specialised language teaching and others have someone who does not even have a GCSE/ability to do a French accent (ie one set of kids will actually have a bash at learning french, the others might get an idea that there are other languages out there, but little more).
  • Why do some schools provide swimming for kids either every week throughout primary school (and even have their own pool) while others have it once a term throughout school ...and yet others only two terms out of the kids entire time in primary. Can the requirement to provide swimming really be satisfied by such meagre provision.
  • Why do some schools near us provide subsidised or free individual or very small group instrument lessons from Y3 up - and others don't.
  • Why do some schools have on sight freshly cooked food, and others have plastic nuked muck sent in.
  • Why do some schools have building that are allowed to stay in very poor condition, while others seem to have the funding to build a specialised music or art wing.
  • Why do some schools have great playgrounds, and others have horrible playgrounds with no real facilities (and the only way to improve is to somehow lobby for funds from parents).
-Why do some (most in our area) have special extra activities for kids who are ahead of the class average (even if it's only half an hour a week discussing books with another teacher) while others don't make any extra provision at all.
  • Why do some schools have full time TA's in each class, while others only have a TA a few hours a day in each class?
  • Why do some schools have links with different creative institutions, and others don't.

Possible answers:

  • PTA involvement. However, while it's true that PTAs can raise varying degrees of money depending on the richness of the area - this can't account for ALL the differences in money, available, surely?
  • Head. I realise that a head can influence how money is spent, but can they have such a major difference in actual provision of services?
  • Parental pressure?
  • Running costs (but surely the budget depends partly on, say, the number of children and the type of building in which it is housed).

I am just baffled by the differences. And it's not even the difference between a good or outstanding school and a failing one. A school can be outstanding or good and have none of these extra provisions, or none delivered in a really meaningful way.

Explanations really gratefully received.

OP posts:
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Adikia · 30/01/2014 13:07

I think a lot of it is parental involvement, the teachers, the community and involvement with other schools.

For example DSs school has a number of language clubs at lunch and after school because he has teachers who are fluent in those languages (Latin, French, Spanish, German and Chinese) and choose to give up their time to run the clubs, there are sports clubs run by a very sporty teacher who chooses to do that.
there are parents who go in and take groups for cookery, sewing, craft, recorder, violin, guitar, flute, piano and extra reading practice.
They also have an assistant in each class but whilst everyone refers to them as TAs some of them are actually just volunteers, same with the school librarian.
The playground equipment is a combination of the PTA, money from the parish and a leaving donation from year 6 each year.
The new classrooms was funding from the parish and the PTA.
Swimming each week is because they have an agreement with a private secondary school (they get free use of both pools for 2 afternoons a week and 2 life guards but supply their own swimming instructors, it's been the same since the early 90's) They charge parents transport costs so it doesn't cost the school as much as schools having to pay for the local public swimming pool.
We also have secondary school children who come in and help the struggling receptions with reading and handwriting towards the end of the summer term (usually a couple of hours a week during study leave/after GCSEs or on work experience)
The local Grammar schools also take high achieving year 5's and 6s to work on projects with their year 8's for a morning a week 1 term a year

The school my friend works at manages swimming every week because the local pool offer a massive schools discount and they have parents who volunteer to help walk the children there and pay some money towards swimming lessons

Adikia · 30/01/2014 13:11

Basketofchocolate, KS1 is year 1 and 2, KS2 is years 3, 4 , 5 and 6. AFAIK most school's don't do swimming in reception and a lot don't do clubs in reception as starting school is already enough for the children to cope with.

answersonapostcard · 30/01/2014 13:19

Adika: So that's good leadership. A head who was receptive to parents, motivates teachers to give up their own time to do extra curricula activities, and finds creative solutions to practical problems (like swimming). Also a head who follows through (not advertising an on line maths programme, for example, which is never, ever used).

OP posts:
answersonapostcard · 30/01/2014 13:22

parental involvement is important. but in some schools there is definitely a suspicion of parental involvement/unused to the expectations of the middle-class parent. so how much parents can get involved is down to the head...

At least I'm filling out in my mind what 'good leadership' actually means and the impact it can have on providing a creative and exciting curriculum/facilities within a school.

OP posts:
PastSellByDate · 30/01/2014 13:34

Hi basket:

Year R is still under Early Years Foundation Stage (so basically pre-school curriculum - which starts in nursery schools age 3 and covers ages 3 - 5: www.gov.uk/government/policies/improving-the-quality-and-range-of-education-and-childcare-from-birth-to-5-years/supporting-pages/early-years-foundation-stage

Key Stage 1 - is Years 1/2 in England
Key Stage 2 is Years 3 - 6 in England

MN has more information on how you are assessed & progress through school here: www.mumsnet.com/learning/assessment/introduction

Unusual around here not to have Year R included in clubs/ after school child care - but perhaps this is the 'tradition' in your area.

Our school (admittedly in the run-up to OFSTED inspection, they've dropped a lot of this now) - had Le Club Francais at lunchtime for Year R/ KS 1 pupils. They did a lot with food, as children could eat their lunch during this.

They also had an after school music & movement club for Year R/ 1/ 2 pupils.

Sorry to hear there is no language clubs in your area - possibly an advantage here is that we live in a large city with big schools - so they can get 20 - 30 kids + to sign up for this kind of club at a school.

Adikia · 30/01/2014 14:41

Oh yeah it's good leadership too but none of it would work without the very dedicated teachers they have and the support being offered, I've been involved with the school for 20 years (since I was there and then coz of younger siblings and DS) and seen it go through several changes in leadership but there is a core group of teachers who have kept everything going

Hoppinggreen · 30/01/2014 17:19

My daughter is in year 4 and I go in once a month to teach French ( voluntary) as the form teachers speak little or no French and were just printing things off the internet with no idea how to pronounce them.
When I asked the Head she said that they are told they have to teach a language but there is no provision for employing anyone to do it.
It's a bit ridiculous really

Coveredinweetabix · 30/01/2014 22:55

I'm also baffled by this. 4 miles away from us is an undersubscribed primary school with its own swimming pool, breakfast club from 7.45 & after school club until 6 and on site cooked school meals. DD's primary school offers a term of swimming lessons in Yr3, has a few before & after school clubs but we are told that they cannot be considered as a form of childcare as they may be cancelled at short notice so we must have someone local who can pick up quickly and they don't offer any form of school meal.

pyrrah · 02/02/2014 16:54

Top priority - a Head who is really pro-active, inspires staff and students and has huge aspirations and expectations for the school.

Next:

  • happy, creative and committed staff who enjoy their job.
  • a high-quality governing body.
  • a core group of interested parents who will give time and help to the school.

DD is at a primary in a very deprived part of London with over 70% FSM.

The HT is amazing and if she wants something for the kids she's not afraid to ask - wanted to do opera with the kids... rang Covent Garden and asked for their help and they duly trotted in to do a huge project with the school. She expects and demands high standards from all students - in behaviour and attainment.

They don't have much in terms of outside space - no fields or swimming pool or anything like that - but being in central London they make use of all the other things that are available. Lots of trips, lots of outside experts coming in to work with the children.

The very high FSM means a big Pupil Premium pot and that helps massively with academic opportunities.

Reception classes each have two teachers and a full-time TA for example. Classes are set into ability groups and taught separately. The results are outstanding.

BingoWingsBeGone · 02/02/2014 18:25

We have a swimming pool whose upkeep is funded by the PTA. Parents go in to help with swimming

Many parents go in and help listen to readers

Teachers run 1 or 2 clubs each (including the HT)

Forest school is run one afternoon a week which the school pay for but low rates as it is a parent's company

After school club is run by a volunteer committee and pays for itself (2 TA's staff the sessions)

It is a rural school so loads of land for fields and playgrounds

Money was brought in by renting part of the school building out as a children's centre

Strong governing body and active PTA all brought together by a great HT

bebanjo · 02/02/2014 22:30

My guess,
Every town has good and bad areas,
Teachers like to work in good areas, more money and more influence in good areas.
Bad areas, more vandalism, more repairs, turnover of staff, training new staff, lack of parental involvement, no PTA also on the council.

HanSolo · 02/02/2014 22:50

It is down to the Head.

I've been working with and in schools for 20 years- the 'feel' of a school, it's ethos come directly from the personality of the Head. You can tell usually from the moment you step in the door what the Head will be like when you meet them.

Starballbunny · 03/02/2014 11:09

The HT and the staffs family circumstances and interests and those of parents and friends of the school

We got lots of music, because of one teacher and a volunteer helper. Some keen parents trained to run girls sport as they were sporty themselves.

Some teachers had teens with keys, but others have long commutes and young DCs. Personally I'd be buggered off if running a club cost me £11 extra at the CM

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