Rank in class

[MilestoneMum]

When I returned from parents' evening last term DH asked me where DD was ranked in the class in terms of ability, as DH's (independent) school would tell parents this.

Would a teacher discuss this? DD is in a state YR and is very capable but at a school which "requires improvement" so I guess we want reassurance she is in the top handful.

When I was youg we were always ranked in class on our termly reports, (state primary and senior). My mother was always cross if I was lower than 4th in class! Thankfully, it had all changed when my two went to school and positions in class had gone out of the window.

OP What would you do if you did not get the reassurance that she was in the top handful?

I think it's even less helpful then thenoodlemachine. I spent years at secondary school being bottom of my very high achieving year group in twice yearly English exams and thinking I was completely useless at it.

Nobody was more surprised than my parents and I that this actually translated into a B at GCSE. I don't think I was that far off an A either. Unfortunately my self-esteem and confidence had taken too much of a battering to change my view of the subject.

Rankings are fine if you are at the top or near enough to the top that the extra work might get you there. If you are at the bottom with no hope of making the top they are pretty soul destroying.

Surely they could be in top set but thick? Depends on abilities of rest of cohort surely

But these are not RANKINGS, Rafa, they are groups. Some of the kids in DD's class are v fluent readers while some can barely read their own name. Therefore they are assigned books according to their ability.

But its meaningless. I'm genuinely confused as to why you would want to know this. I taught a class a few years ago that had a group of 4 very bright children. Gifted and talented for definite. Not sure why such a big group on one class. Some t was for literacy and some Numeracy.

So my level 5s were actually my 'second top' group despite being very bright and capable because they were behind a group of level 6s and 7s!

That's an extreme example but all teachers have had brighter classes one year and less bright another year. Especially in big schools. To be honest its nothing more than competitiveness.

OP, could your dh be confused with this senior school? I know of one senior private school that ranks all the children (maybe they all do? I don't know).

My DS goes to a fantastic prep school. He is in year 2. The teacher has told me that he is the top group and what areas he is getting extension work in, what things need improving, etc. She didn't even tell me how many children are in the top group (for all I know it could be half the class).

I would absolutely hate it if they ranked each child. What would that do to the confidence of those at the bottom and also it would be a huge amount of pressure for those at the top to stay on their ranking. Not much fun.

I don't know if they do this further up the school, I really hope not.

Of course it isn't meaningless how your child performs in relation to the rest of their class! Your extreme examples are exceptions.

We want to know because it's great to know that your child is higher up the list than her child!!!!

That doesn't mean that we should be told. But that's why we all secretly want to know.

and why I am very grateful for my ability to scan teacher's lists upside down and very quickly on parent's evenings!

Class rankings stopped being done years ago.

It's where the saying "top of the class" comes from.

So in say 1950 someone would say "Young Algernon is doing well at Eton. He is top in Mathematics, 2nd in Stinks, only 9th in Geography but we don't care about that do we Darling whaa haa haa" etc.

We went to the Churchill war rooms and museum and they had some of his old reports with things like:

Position in class: 18th
Number in class: 18

When I was at school we did twice yearly exams through primary, which enabled us to have a rank in the form, we also had a mark, (out of 200, 100 being the expected from an average ability). This meant that the form could be compared in a weak sort of way with other years. I think things aren't marked as much with "points" in the same way, so ranking would be harder.

From my form 3, went to my secondary where we were put into different forms. Our "ranks" at primary were approximately: 1st, 3rd, 15th (out of 30). When we got our "rank" from our secondary at the end of the first term, we were all 3rd. Thus showing how the forms ranked in ability.

Rank isn't totally useless for a parent though.
NC levels sound great, but how many parents actually have a really strong grip on what is good and what isn't.
I know for my dc we were given at juniors a sort of chart: Expected for year 3 = 2a-3b (or whatever, I can't remember). This meant that some of the people whose dc had got 3b across the board thought they had a genius on their hands. But what they didn't know was that for year 3 they assessed up to 4c. When the maths sets across the forms (big school entry) were given there were some very indignant parents. If they had been told 3b/15th in the form, it would have not been so much of a shock to find there were children better.

But I think the op wanting to know to check her dc are in the top handful, is a bit sad really. I mean everyone would like to know their dc are popular, clever and the mainstay of the form . But to be asking to check that, seems to be putting a bit too much emphasis on that for a year R. And just because the school is requiring improvement, it doesn't mean there aren't some very bright children there.

If DC's school did rankings DD would do better than DS by virtue of simply being in a weaker cohort (e.g. she is one of the best 2 at maths in her class, but much weaker than DS at the same age - who didn't even make it into the top group of 6 children).

DH may well have been thinking of his older years st school.

DD seems to be brighter than me so I see no reason why she shouldn't be in the top sets. If she isn't, we will try to help at home more.

I was told in our year R parents evening that dc was 'top of a bright class but there are others chasing him' or similar.
I didn't ask - she just said it.

DS goes to an independent primary and the teacher didn't tell me where he was in relation to others in the class. In any case, there's a massive range of age and ability, so it wouldn't be a of any particular use to know anyway.

All I asked was how he was doing generally and if there were any issues the teacher had noted which required improvement and extra help at home.

MilestoneMum
DD seems to be brighter than me so I see no reason why she shouldn't be in the top sets. If she isn't, we will try to help at home more.
but you have utterly missed the point

if the other kids in the cohort are brighter, then she will be lower down, regardless of whether she is brighter than you
its how she is relative to every child in the class .... which will change constantly as children mature and pupils change schools

Well my dc1 is obviously super bright , but in reality she's somewhere in the middle. Dc 2 needs extra support.

It's pointless. In DSs year (Y5) there were a group of people who assumed their children were very bright and a shoo in for the 11+ as the school streams by ability from Y1 and their children have always been in the top set.

It is now becoming known that it's not an especially bright cohort, so where people were making comparisons with others in the cohort, it really is irrelevant.

"All you need to be able to do is read upside down at parents's evenings."

I never have any information about other children where it can be seen. I keep each child's info in separate folders and it isn't "ranked".

In my experience, mrz, you are alone of all your profession! They usually aren't ranked, but usually there are marks or levels next to their names on the list. Years as a civil servant means that I can scan down a list while not seeming to, and absorb all the information contained therein........

And you find that useful to do because....

I never had books of marks, etc on my desk at parent's evenings for all to see. I always ensured I only ever had that one child's information in front of me; different pupil on separate sheets. Because I knew parents ould spend half their appointment scanning lists pside down if I did otherwise!

I work in infants now and we don't ever give rankings out - we will see if a child is working above, at or below expectations and will give out NC levels.

But rankings are a bit useless surely? It doesn't tell you how you actual child is doing in relation to themself and their own individual progress, And it will change for every subject. Just because a child is top of the class at reading, doesn't mean they are in numeracy, or wirting, or phonics, PE, science, etc...

Oh and DD was at an indepependent primary and now at independent secondary - no rankings given out throughout whole of primary and so far in Y7 none either.

Because I am The Elephant's Child and suffer from 'satiable curtiosity.

As everyone does, if only they would admit it

The teachers have always told me - and I didn't ask - where the dcs were in the class.

It was back in my day, in the swing yer pants 70s, that there was no ability grouping, no teaching to read, no grammar taught etc etc.

I agree that ranking depends on the cohort - but if you have a clever child then they will always be in the top few.

But the OP's child is in year R! Dd did not read one word in year R. She wouldn't even try. All I can say is year R performance is no indicator of subsequent primary school achievement!