Infant school: English not as first language

[saffstel]

Hello
I wonder if anyone can give me any guidance?
I have to apply for infant school this year for Dd1.
We are in a terrible area for infant schools, and are out of catchment for most of the local schools.
However, there is a possibility that we can get her into a local catholic school (that doesn't get brilliant results generally, but had Good at last ofsted).
The issue is that the school is made up of over 60% of children who have English as a second language. I am worried that this may adversely impact my daughters education (as less attention will be paid to children who can just 'get on with it') and socially I am worried that she might be excluded. She is quite shy.
Am I just being ott, or are these reasons not to put her into a school? Does anyone have any experience?
Thanks x

Ps I hope I don't sound like a massive racist (I'm not!), I'm just worried about my daughter progressing educationally

Do the 60% of children all share the same 1st language?
40% of children do have English as a 1st language, and the majority of the others may well speak English to a high standard - EAL doesn't necessarily mean "doesn't speak English" or even that they need support.

I'd maybe look at the league tables as well and see what percentage of children achieved level 4 and level 5 Sats results, and see how that compares to other schools.

Thanks for the advice.
There are 35 different languages in the school! (It's only one form intake so it's quite a small school).
And according to ofsted a high percentage of kids need s&l support.
I have looked at league tables, and it's the 4th worse in my city! But we don't really have any alternative apart from private (which would cripple us financially)
I was just wondering if a bright child would do ok wherever they are or would suffer from a lack of attention?
Not sure what to do!

You need to go and have a look round. Everyone was very scathing about the choice of school we made, based largely on the EAL figures. A real quote from a nursery parent: "I don't want my son sitting in the corner not able to make any friends as none of them speak English". We went and looked around the nursery and reception classes and it was evident immediately that it was not full of uncommunicative children all struggling, but full of kids who were chatting away just as normal. Many of the 'EAL' kids actually speak English to some degree at home and those that don't don't really seem to have too much trouble at school, at least in the early stages. Do ask the teachers how they deal with EAL and what they will do to ensure your child is treated as an individual with her own needs met. How do they deal with children who really don't have much English - they may have special teaching assistants for this purpose. I would be more concerned if there was a high turnover of children with new non-English speakers arriving regularly higher up the school without additional support.

My DD went to a school where 50% spoke English ad a second language. It was a great experience for her, she learnt about all sorts of different cultures. The school did not 'leave her to get on with it'. The children who needed extra support received it, but that was not to the detriment of the other children.

And from what I saw (from playdates, helping in class etc) most of the so called ESL children had a stronger local accent than DD! They were just categorised as ESL because their parents were not native English speakers, but they had been born here, been to preschool, made friends, watched TV etc. I can only think of one girl who genuinely spoke no English before starting school. She had a lot of one to one support and picked it up in no time.

If there's a big variety in languages spoken then I wouldn't worry about social exclusion - that's more of an issue if the majority are from one language/cultural background that you don't share.

At primary particularly, a bright well supported child will do well anywhere. I would visit and be more interested in how happy and and engaged the children seem.

Given the number of different languages spoken I don't think you should worry that she will feel excluded, English will be a bonding language for them all.

I think you need to go and look around on a normal school day and see how the children interact with each other.

DH was one of those EAL kids. He'd been to play groups, and watched TV. He knew some English.

The only time I'd worry is if one language was the majority langugae of all the kids - and this isn't the case - about 80 kids in the school with a different first language, and 35 languages, there are only going to be a couple speaking each language. They will communicate in English.

Kids at that age pick up a language really, really quickly, so I don't think the languages is a problem.

Go look at the school, and see what you think, how everyone interacts, and the feel of the school.

My son goes to a school with a very high EAL. In fact, in his class, there are 2 other kids who speaks English at home. He is still only in the middle of the class! EAL doesn't affect intelligence anyway, although it can hold kids back a little in the early years.

I think it can only be beneficial to your child:
a) If your kid is intelligent academically plus has good English, they will likely be close to the top of the class, which is great for self esteem, self confidence and this leads to better learning
b) If your kid is 'average' academically, they will be less disadvantaged ie. where they may be in the bottom group of another school, they will be in the middle.
c) The cultural side of things more than makes up for it
d) If you are involved in your child's education, keep up dialogue with teachers, do some work at home (especially reading) your kid will be fine.

50% EAL in DD1s class and nearly 60% EAL in DD2's class.

MOST speak the same first language although out of the others there are a couple who understand that main first language as their language is very similar.

is it actually a problem? well yes and no.

Some of the children speak English fluently so that is fine, some understand it but don't speak it, others seem to be in their own little world because they don't seem to understand or speak it but that is the very small minority.

In the playground as far as I know the children tend to play in English although because of the large number of children from 1 community I am pretty sure there is a fair amount of conversing in their language from what my daughters tell me. It can be a bit alienating as a parent as so many share another language and tend to talk in it at pick up which is difficult to infiltrate, the other EAL families are very keen to mix, chat in English, even those who aren't that confident in the language and I have made some great friends and my children are learning lots about different countries and how their languages sound.

Is it holding my children back? no I don't believe it is. one is in R and one in Yr1. Yr1 child is doing very well, the EAL children all now seem to speak English extremely well and they are well represented in the top couple of groups and I would expect this to increase by Yr2 to be honest as their families respect education and have a strong work ethic plus their brains must work well to be able to speak 2 or more languages. R child is very confident in class and I think this is, in part, due to the fact so many children don't speak. The school are handling it with immersion so the kids are expected to get on with it and I think the majority went to preschool so they should understand enough to get through the day plus they will pick it up quickly if immersed in the language.

Would my kids do better if the children were all native English speakers? I don't think it would make any difference. Perhaps friend wise initially it would be easier as certainly in R DD's case it is very hard when out of 15 girls 4 or 5 really don't speak English so she finds it harder to make friends with them. DD1's class didn't seem so bad in that sense and I think the children fitted in together a bit more quickly but then there were a lot fewer with the one common language. Academically I don't think it would make a difference and at least as I have said these families really do seem to value education and have high expectations, the children seem well behaved and disciplined and I do believe this is partly because their community expects this.

very long winded reply but yes I was worried initially but am I worried now? no.

Thank you all so much. You've really put my mind at ease! Really looking forward to going to have a look!

The only issue that I've noticed in our school is it's much harder to get kids from families with ESL to come over for plays. We've tried, repeatedly, and while parents from all different countries are happy to chat and smile and wave to each other in the playground, so far there has been stalling about after school meet-ups - and they've simply never happened. In the classroom, however, the kids all speak English and mix well.

I would worry..My main reason when I was at college doing my GCSE English..I was the only one whose first language ..I got a grade c..my teachers said he always saved mine till last as it was the best ...I do think I would of been taught more in a different college...but this was colleg not primary school

yes I agree with tiggytape that actually if they have a huge variety of languages there is likely to be far less impact than if there is one other main one.

I think in DD1's reception class there were 6 or 7 different languages for the EAL children but 8 out of the 30 children all had the same one and in DD2's class I think there are 17 or 18 EAL children, 6 or 7 different languages and 11 children with the same one so over a third of the class have a common language that isn't English with a fair few of them unable to speak much English on entry to school.

I would only worry if all the children with EAL spoke only one other language. A large number of different ones doesn't worry me.

DD attends Reception in a Primary with 68% EAL and over 70% FSM. We were very, very keen for her to go there and the academic results are exceptional - over 20% of kids get L6 in KS2 maths and well over 50% are getting L5 in KS2 English.

To be honest, most of the EAL children have either enough English to get by or are completely fluent. In any case, in Reception there are plenty of mother-tongue English children whose verbal skills are late to develop.

I'd judge the school on other matters - what do you feel when you go round it?

We once looked at a flat, and then realised that the local school was 98% eal. Nearly all of that one language. Dd would have been the only native
English speaker in her year.

Puts it into perspective a bit, for London that is not a high proportion.