Pan Confusion

[EauPea]

I always thought the maximum number of children in Reception was 30, however looking at the figures for some single intake schools locally, the pan ranges from 7 to 45.

Is it as simple as those with more than 30 would have a full time TA?

I am still not comfortable with the choices I have made for DD's reception application, so have been looking at schools slightly further afield, I have just 8 days left to get a grip and she's not even my pfb, attempt to sound nearly normal on the application rather than pushy parent #1

If the school has a PAN of 45 it can either have 2 classes of 22/23 or, more likely have a straight year class and a mixed year class over 2 years. So possibly a Reception class of 30 and a Yr 1 class also of 30 together with a R/1 class with 15 of each year group. Other combinations are also possible!

one of the primary schools I attended had pan of 45, we had three composite classes for each year (if that makes sense). so three classes of y6/y5 with 15 of each year group in each etc

The infant class size regulations say that the maximum number of pupils in a class with one teacher is 30. For that reason, the PAN is usually 30 or a multiple of 30. Where the PAN is (say) 45, the most usual arrangement is mixed year classes with a total of 30 in each class.

The restriction is on the number of children in a single class with a teacher (NOT a TA). A school with a PAN over 30 must have at least 2 classes with Reception children. A typical arrangement would be 2 classes of 22/23 in Reception and then 3 classes of 30 covering Y1 and Y2.

had to chuckle at your thread 8days left and im feeling nervous even as 2nd time round parent.

I now activly avoid pan of 45 after eldest but every school does different its really how the split is managed.

dd1s old schoolprimary so r-year 6 10classes pan of 45.

reception-30+2job share teachers and shared ta.
reception 30yougest purly by dob.

eldest 15 in mixed class called r1 elset 15 rceptions with 15youngest year 1s

personally hated as mixing foundation with keystage 1.

new school pan 20. rception by themselves 5classes all other classes mixed so they did mix keystage 1-2 but seeems to work.

dd1 in old scool never in mixed class and since moving been mixed and done better so explaining to parents who anti mixed classes lots are what they dont seem to realise is mixes can work if done well and is good school.

old school had massive problems with 2/3class and apparetly o mix infants ks1 but will have to be ks2 juniors as dont have the room.

one of schools on my list is infants
75intake.

which means 3classes 25rceptions. as they feel thats god number.
but mixed classes year 2 and head made huge pint saying taht class has extra ta and works in smalller groups.

30/60 be my preferred pan as least you know where you are in every year.

My old school had a PAN of 12. Reception was on it's own, and then there were 1/2, 3/4 and 5/6 classes. There were normally only 24 in each class, but we did take in children where space permitted.

Different schools will approach the class size differently but the key issue is the infant class size regs that say that the maximum number of infant pupils with one school teacher is 30. The problem is that many head teachers do not have a good enough appreciation of how the admission process and admission appeal process works and what the outcome is likely to be.
So to give an example many of the free schools are quoting small classes as a selling point. Perfectly acceptable to have 25 in the class (if financially you can afford it) but if the classroom is more than 50 sq metres then any appeal panel is going to seriously consider whether the school can accommodate an extra pupil. It does not matter how much and how often the head says I only want 25 in the classroom and think of the work load on the teacher, if it is of a suitable size to take more than 25 then the the school it is likely to get more pupils. The question is not that it should be limited to 25 it is how a PAN of 25 was agreed in the first place, given there is a national methodology for working out net capacity and PAN. So the reality is that classes of 25 will tend to creep up to 30 - that is where the legislation stops the admission of more pupils.

One of our local schools has a pan of 6, and has 1 class for infants and one for juniors.

Forget angst over whole class parties, some people have had whole school birthday parties!

Looking around schools I've found them to be slightly disingenuous when Pan was 15. They go on about the fluffy lovely nature of such a small intake, but gloss over the fact that the mixed classes mean that you're still in a class of 30, for 6 out of 7 years anyway.

To pick up on Admission's comments, there is an independent school near me that is talking about becoming a free school. They cover the entire age range (4-18) on two sites. They are talking about a target class size of 22 in the primary school. They are also talking about class sizes increasing over time through managed growth. I'm pretty certain they are in for a shock when they have their first admission appeals.

Thanks for all your replies

I agree that a low pan isn't always as pink and fluffy as the literature would lead you to believe, although I am a fan of mixed classes. It was the larger number that confused me.

I have re-submitted the application again my worry is that as two of the schools are outside the designated zone, I may be seriously hampering my chances of NOT getting a place at the local special measures school, although both schools did say they have either currently or recently had pupils from our village (both no more than a 10 minute drive).

aaarrrrggggghhhh I am way over thinking this

Have you put down at least one school that you are more or less guaranteed to get a place at?

admission if schools pan is lower than 30 ie 15, 20, 25 does that make appealing easier? as the tception teacher and ta could manage over the pan but would have knock on effect classes upwards as ony rception by themselves and older years mixed.

as year 1 and 2 still be under ics rules unless gove dares change that anytime soon.

If any of the classes in Reception, Y1 or Y2 have 30 children with a single teacher (or would have if all three years were full) an appeal will be heard under ICS rules. So, to take one of your examples, a school with a PAN of 15 would probably have a Reception class then a mixed class covering Y1/2. Since the mixed class would have 30 pupils any appeal would be heard under ICS rules even though there are only 15 in Reception.

Similarly a school with a PAN of 20 probably has a mixed R/Y1 class and a mixed Y1/2 class each with 30, making it an ICS appeal.

A PAN of 25 is more promising. That means 75 pupils in infants so there must be 3 classes, so the most likely scenario is 3 classes of 25. If that is the case an appeal would not be ICS and therefore you would have a better chance of winning.

AS PRH says it is all about the situation across years reception, year 1 and year 2 and not just about the numbers in the reception class.
You need to look at the individual classes in the school to decide whether it will be an infant class size case, not just the PAN, as there is an infinite number of variations on how the school can be set up for different PANs. PRH has suggested the more obvious ones.
If the class in year 1 or year 2 or a combination of the two has 30 or multiple of 30 in the classes then it will be an infant class size case.

Thanks guys does not help me school preference one but school preference 3 is infants with 3classes of 25 .

All I would say is sometimes think 30, 60 intake lot simple as classmates dont change every year .

Pan of 7-10 or there abouts is found in a tiny school where there is a single foundation & KS1 class, which may have a an age spread of 4-7 . The pan may change year by year depending on the number of children already in that class as total number may not be over 30.

eg year 2 cohort has 13 children
year one cohort is 10 children
Year R cohort may only have 7

The following year the PAN might be higher as the 13 year 2s will have moved out of that class. leaving space for for a PAN of 13.

Sorry UniS, but the system does not work like that in England. The Published Admission Number does not vary from year to year as you describe, it stays the same.
The PAN is derived from the net capacity of the school. The net capacity is calculated by using a nationally agreed process of measuring all the school rooms and coming up with a figure for the maximum number of pupils that could normally be in the school. To take on easy example if the derived net capacity is 210, then the PAN will then be 210 divided by the 7 year groups, in other words a PAN of 30. The PAN will only change if the net capacity changes.
It is however now acceptable, based on the 2012 admission code to exceed the PAN providing that due consideration is taken not to break the infant class size regulations and that the school agree that the pupils can be admitted.
The situation in Wales is slightly different and there it is possible for the PAN to change on more or less an annual basis.

I'm in a school with a PAN of 45. The actual intake (fairly rural so never chocca-block full) has varied over the years so we sometimes have pairs of small 'low 20s' classes in KS1, or sometimes have mixed classes. In KS2 we have a mix of single year group large classes of 30+ and some mixed year classes when it was closer to 45 each year. It changes as different-sized cohorts go up the school. We haven't enough class rooms for two classes in every year, so could never have a PAN of 60.