how 'instant recall' should timestables be?

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DD1 is starting learning tables (2 - already counts easily in 2s 5s and 10s). How quickly should she be able to recall them? She said they were supposed to practice over the holidays so we have done a little bit just when we were out on a walk the other day and she knows quite a few of them very quickly, a few of them a bit slower and 1 or 2 she has to work out. She definitely understands that 8x2 is the same as 2x8 and also that it is 8 lots of 2 so can relate it to something concrete rather than just know the song/rhyme so to speak. We have done them in the logical ascending order but also more randomly (it was quite a long walk and she wanted to do it as she said it made her feel clever). I was rubbish at tables, I really struggled to learn them, same as spelling so I want her to be as confident as she can be and whilst she is keen we might as well set the basics strongly.

So my question really is should she be able to recall them instantly at this stage (yr1) or is it ok to still be working some of them out albeit pretty quickly (I suspect she is doing say 7x2+2 rather than 8x2)?

oh and she said they only had to go to 10x but we did up to 12x. have things changed?

Not a teacher.

My view is in yr1 if she can get to them without having to chant all the way up the table she's doing pretty well.

Ideally though by y5/6 and then into secondary you need to be pretty much instant recall. If they haven't got that recall (and spotting e.g. that 72 = 9x8 and therefore 72/18 = 8/2 = 4) then it becomes a real pain. They spend so long working out the times table bit in a question that they forget what the original question was all about. (Elder DD in y10, still not good with tables, causes problems).

Oh, yes, it is up to 10x at the moment, though I think Gove wants to change that. 11 and 12 x are not essential since decimalisation, but quite useful.

It's fine not to have instant recall. She is doing well for year 1. Obviously you would aim for it but it is not expected till more like year 3 and above.

I never realised that was why we had done up to 12 times. I don't think I ever thought about why we learned up to 12 then stopped. interesting.

She likes 11. I told her it and she thinks it is brilliant because it is so easy!

so I am going about it the right way then, more important she understands what it means and how to get to it at the moment than knowing the answer in a split second.

thanks

I am drilling DS on the easy ones at the moment. He is Y2. It's just practice remembering them and then you know them instantly which is very useful. (disclaimer...you need the understanding as well, but presume that child has this before learning them).

However, your DD is Y1 so I would chill. Mind you, we chilled, then realised DS didn't know his 5 times table (could count in 5s but not do them in any order), thought he should, so have practised it, and now he does. We're going to work on 3s next. I see no reason why he shouldn't learn several before the end of the year, but will go at his pace. I think if we don't do it he won't learn though- I was quite that he didn't know the 5s- it seems they don't practise them enough in school to really know them, well not at this stage, or at least DS hadnt learnt.

thanks fruitpastille - As nothing has been sent home about it I wasn't sure if it was one of those 'if you want to do this you can' type things or an 'extra challenge' for the keen ones rather than a 'you must do this'. If she is keen then we might as well though, she likes tables more than spellings but I am sure the novelty will wear off.

freetrait - I read the Yr1 newsletter/guide to curriculum type thing as being they should learn to count in 2,5,10s in preparation for learning the tables in yr2 but perhaps then it doesn't actually translate to learning the actual tables as clearly as it needs to? She was asking what she should learn next in tables so I said I expected it would be 5 or 10 but not sure.

Depends utterly on the age and ability of the child DD2 could do pretty instant when she's was in Y5 and in practice, DD1 and I will never be able to do it.

We are both dyslexic, we are both good at maths, it we'll never know our tables without a bit of counting on our fingers.

Yes, I think most schools do 2s, 5s and 10s, counting and then tables as you say. We had something home about getting secure in those tables and then moving onto 3s once they are good at those.

starballbunny - she is showing a lot of signs of being dyslexic and I think I am too. I was always good at maths too but tables were a bit of a mystery to me.

ok so 2s for now, if she is keen then 5 or 10. thanks

My DC school aim for kids to be secure in all times tables (instant recall) by end of yr4.

DD (yr1) is also learning her times tables (knows 2s and 10s pretty well) now working on 5s.

However she doesn't really understand the concept of what times tables means (groups of so 2x2 is 2 groups of 2) despite me showing her with marbles.

I am happy (as is she) to teach her 5s but will probably wait a bit after that till she grasps the meaning.

The kids need to do division alongside multiplication. In my (parental) experience kids are given, for example the 4x table to learn and learn all the multiples, then they go onto the 6x table or whatever. sometime later, they come back to the 4x and do divisions.

I don't like this as it does not emphasise the relatedness of the operations. 4 x 6 = 24 means that 24/4 = 6 and 24/6 = 4. These are all facets of the same fact. Kids are often taught these things separately and find it harder to get the whole picture.

Children are expected to know their 2X, 5X & 10X by the end of Y2 (and yes they should be taught division is the inverse op at the same time).
In Y1 the emphasis is normally on counting in 2s,5s & 10s and knowing that 3x2 means 3 sets of 2 or 2+2+2. Understanding before instant recall.

thanks everyone - so as she can count in 2, 5, and 10 happily we will just make sure we do 2s inside out and round about etc before moving on to 5s. Hadn't thought so much about doing it as division although as I say she does understand it is 2 lots of 8 or 8 lots of 2 and that they are the same so when she next wants to practice I will try doing some of the lower ones as division with her.