Punished for making mistakes - reasonable?

[Namechangersanon]

Ds is in year 6, the change in atmosphere has been dramatic, school, which also changed leadership this year, has gone from being a pleasantly supportive environment to a highly pressured punitive environment.

Dcs will lose break for poor performance on their times tables, homework not completed, Homework Diary not signed by parents, not filling in their reading record, forgetting their PE stuff! I'm sure there are others.

Today Ds told me they'd lose their lunchtime if they incorrectly marked their partners spelling test. I know they want to prep them for secondary and they want them to do well in the Sats but am I alone in thinking this is going too far... punishing a child for making a mistake, and if you take a lunchtime from a child for a mistake, what do you do when it's something more deliberate?

Reading record in Y6? I 'lost' DD2's in Y3 or 4

I think you need first to go to the teacher and then, if necessary to the head for a fuller explanation of the policy, rather than coming here with half, of a half of an understanding of what is going on and having a rant. We can't comment if we don't understand the situation. Maybe it's wrong and troubling and maybe you've misunderstood.

I wish! ds reads an enormous amount but if the reading record doesn't reflect his input he get break detention, if they fill it all out in a oner for the week - he gets detention....so he has to use different pens for each entry.

Being punished for marking incorrectly sounds odd, mainly because it is much harder for poor spellers to do the task. If however it's a garble, and there are 'catch up' classes as lunchtimes, then it's probably OK.

The rest are pretty normal.

Sounds a bit harsh. Speak to the school to check its actually the case. I like reading records- if they're used with a view to a reading journal. Many children like collecting book titles and authors they've read and keep stickers for reading achievement in there. Even year 6 children like it when we write a comment about their reading in there.

Sorry, I might be being dim here. Do you mean he has to make an entry in one colour which is then verified before making an entry in a different colour after verification? Otherwise, if I wanted to cheat the multicoloured pen system I would just fill my pocket with different colour pens and use a new pen for each entry and still write them all on the same day.

I'm sure you have a grievance but at the moment it's coming out in a jumbled up fashion. Would it be worth collecting the facts, checking with the teachers mentioned above and maybe reposting in a day or two?

What's wrong with having a rant on Mumsnet?

Basically there are a whole lot of actions or inactions that result in missing break. Up till now these have been something the child has to an extent deliberately failed to do, I guess the threat to punish a child for an anticipated mistake is in my opinion a step too far...

Hmm I agree.

Punishment for not getting book signed, forgetting PE kit is fair enough as the child has control over that (although much harder for any unfortunate pupils whose parents to not care/look after their dc properly)

Punishment for not doing well enough academically - completely not on, some dc just do not have the ability and they should not be punished for that

They sound pretty draconian - I have a DD in secondary and her school isn't as harsh as this - and they don't seem to have enormous discipline issues. Have they been OFSTEDed lately?

I have told my Y6 class that from Jan they will be tested on times tables, and if they don't do well enough I will keep them in at break to practise.

Now I would not and will not punish a child who practises every single night and still can't learn them. But I have a lot of children in my class who are making no effort to learn their tables, and it is probably the biggest thing that they can do to improve their performance in maths. If they don't do it at home, we have to try and get them to learn them somehow, and I don't really want to spend lesson time that could be used for more difficult concepts.

So- I agree with some of the teacher's reasoning.

As for the spelling tests- I imagine they've had children deliberately marking other children down, or giving their friends extra marks.

strrugling - are you going to differentiate as to what is "well enough" between different ability dc? How are you going to know how hard a dc has practised?

My DS is in yr4 and his class get kept in if they do not do 4 entries in their reading diary (filled in themselves).

Agree that DS's reading diary doesn't reflect what he reads either. He loves reading (finally) but hates the entries in the diary.

Ds is anxious every Wed when they practice times tables, he is really quite good at them but he is expected to get faster and faster, which is wants to do but the threat of being punished for messing up on a test is something I find difficult.
The punitive approach to learning is not something I have come across before and I'm not sure whether it's Year 6 or the new Head that has caused the change. But I can't imagine it's doing much for his love of learning.
The school was rated as good with outstanding features, their Sats results are exceptionally high - but they weren't always.

Next time our Y6 teacher pulls one of their favourite little punishments I think I'm going to track down their extended family and take it out on them.

They're a bit of a 'collective punishment' fan, who also punishes unsigned homework diaries. I'll be teaching DD to fake a respectable looking signature over xmas.

I suspect the punished for incorrect marking may be that some of the form have been deliberately (either in a teasing way or maliciously) mismarking.

And homework diary is simple. What I did at school(and I showed dd1 what to do) is if you remember get mum to sign it. If you forget "dad" signs it. As you always sign his signature it always looks genuine. Df's was easy to forge too in my case.

RandomMess-yes, 'well enough' could vary considerably between children of different abilities. In practice, my class are all at a similar level, so I can set an easily attainable floor target e.g. I expect them to get correct all the questions on the 2x, 3x, 5x and 10x tables.

As for how will I know how hard they've worked-I find that most children are fairly honest. A simple "Did you practise these times tables yesterday?" is usually enough- if they say no, I feel no guilt about keeping them in. If they say yes, I might give extra support/advice, keep an eye on the situation.

One of the teachers around here was keeping in those who got more than 5 wrong on their mental arithmetic test - wasn't even just timetables in a mixed ability class

Strrugling you seem to be taking a much more sensible approach!

Ds was asked by his teacher if he spent 45mins on his homework - he said no...but he had spent at least that because I was in the room cooking dinner while he was doing it - he had no concept of how long 45mins was, so he lost a break time and a lunch time.

That is taking it from draconian to dreadful... I agree that having PE kit and getting things signed are things that need enforcing (and even then I think there should be a warning first and then escalation if it recurs) but what you've just written is appalling. I'd be minded to have a word - point out that your DS did spent 45 minutes on his homework but that he lost track of time and that this is a completely inappropriate way of tracking whether homework was done.

Bloody hell, sounds like an utterly awful school.

Name, have you had a conversation with the teacher? It might be an idea to find out how much of that is actually the case.
(I threatened mine to keep them in at lunch for sloppy drawing today. Two of my pupils are dyspraxic. I would never keep them in for that. It was a comment, that was mostly aimed at certain children, who I had already spoken to about that issue. They knew, who was meant,...and me constantly checking on their work during the lesson meant that they did fine with a little help. If they just go home and tell their parents that I'm making my class stay in for not drawing nicely, they will think I've lost the plot.)

I've got Y5. Mine have to stay in for lack of homework. They know that. Their parents know that. They also seem to think that it's fair and a natural consequence. I don't punish them for having spent less than a certain amount of time on homework. However, I have kept one of mine in last week, because he did about a third of the questions...and left out things that I know he can do. (They are allowed to leave out things they really can't work out.) We went through the questions again and he was able to do them with a little help. That was an exception, though, because I needed him to revise that particular concept...and because he was beginning to get sloppy with homework and needed a bit of a reminder about expectations. Not usually an issue, though.

If their spelling and times tables results are linked to homework, I can understand why there would a consequence for poor performance. However, most class teachers would know their pupils well enough to know what they can expect from particular children.

I'd also expect there to be a consequence for lack of PE kit, especially if it happens regularly.

Mine sometimes worry about consequences of poor academic performance, because my expectations of my class are very high...and I come down on them quite hard when they are being lazy. I had a conversation about that with one of my pupils this week, because he got upset by what he perceived was poor performance on his part. I usually ask a very simple question, "Did you try?" Similar to what struggling suggested, they tend to be honest enough to tell me the truth. They know that I don't expect more than them trying their best. However, they sometimes need a reminder that not being fantastic at everything all the time is perfectly ok. I only get cross with them, if they have messed up because they didn't bother with it in the first place. He still was upset with himself, because he thought he could have done better. (He did perfectly fine,...and actually scored way above average for his age!)

I did deal with the 45min homework issue, teacher was a bit surprised that she'd misjudged the situation so badly - I mentioned it for struggling mainly, because as we all know, you can ask a child something and you don't always get an accurate response - which is what everyone says to you when your ds complains about what the teacher said...but maybe the teachers need to get that the dc might not tell them everything they need to, to defend themselves. Sometimes they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

That'ssofunny Despite working hard, my ds still takes the threat as aimed at the whole class and aimed at him, he still feels under pressure and feels very anxious about his performance.

He is used to threats being followed through - I don't issue them unless I intend to follow through...so even if the teacher is just making an idle threat ds will not see it that way - beginning to think I should have been a bit sloppier in my parenting approach, jeez the things you learn too far down the line!

I don't make 'idle' threats. I said to my class, "CERTAIN children need to work on their drawing of graphs and charts in Maths [cue stare at said children and them grinning and waving at me, pointing at themselves and nodding their heads...while the rest of my class begin to giggle], because there are squares in your Maths books and they are not there to just make it look pretty. We've had that conversation, so put it into practice! If you really cannot be bothered, we'll have to put in some extra time at lunchtime...and, guys, I like you and I know you love me so much you'd like to spend all your free time with me,...but I'm pretty sure your friends would appreciate your company much more."
My class know very well what will happen, if they don't bother. Thing is, they did bother,...so there's no need for me to punish them. If they hadn't, they would have stayed in and done it again. Simple. However, I'm incredibly predictable.
I get worried, if children, who work hard and have nothing to worry about, begin to worry about stuff like that. It usually means we'll have a chat to sort that out.
My class are not usually worried about me, though. Their general description of me to others is: "Strict, but fair...and crazy." Aehm,...thanks.