would this ring alarm bells to you?

[BrightonMama]

And if so, can anyone hazard a guess at what might be going on with DS? He's in Y1 and is 5, 6 in May. I've posted on here before (and received some excellent advice) when at the end of reception he was struggling with reading. He is making some progress with this though, and has recently moved up to Yellow book band but does still struggle.

Just had parents evening and the teacher said that DS is struggling with comprehending everything that's going on in class. She also mentioned he may have some special needs but she is newly qualified and couldn't tell us what he might have or how we could help him.

We weren't surprised at her comments as sometimes it's a bit like Engllish is a foreign language to him. He did have quite significant speech and language problems in the past - he didn't speak until about 3.5 - and doesn't express himself quite as well as other children his age. He does speak clearly now but his vocab is poor.

In class the teacher says DS:
Frequently looks blank and glazed
Doesn't know what he's meant to be doing
Will often copy other children's work
But - he has loads of friends, is very sociable and will have a go at answering questions so is not shy to speak up when he does know the answer
Struggles with pretty much every subject - although not in the very bottom group

At home we've noticed he:
Doesn't like stories - finds it impossible to follow the plot of anything that's not a picture book, even really easy fairy tales.
Likes but doesn't understand jokes
Struggles with turns of phrases (things like take your time, raining cats and dogs etc)
Unless conversation is pitched at his level it goes completely over his head (this might be entirely normal).

We've put a lot of things down to his being a bit dreamy/young for his age but now I'm wondering if it could all add up to something?

Sorry that is long! Thanks if you made it that far!

Are you sure it's not a case of expecting too much? My 5yo daughter is very bright but I still pitch things at what I consider her level to be. (Actually she finds this annoying.) I can't think of the precise example any more, I've tried before. But I use the pseudo-word "owy" for all things painful/harmful/deleterious. (She also has a younger sister.) Once when addressing the two of them on the subject of something undesirable I used my made up word and my daughter said "you don't have to use baby words. I can understand proper ones." And I tried for the life of me to think how I would explain it using proper language and not using words that she didn't understand. (It was some abstract concept. I can't remember which one.) And in the end I found it too difficult and gave up. She just had to put up with owy that time.

My first thought was have you had his hearing tested? This could account for him looking blank and not sure what to do

Yes, you could be right although we wouldn't have worried too much about it if the teacher hadn't mentioned it.

Maybe it's the teacher expecting too much of him too? I'm wondering if she's put him in too high a group for his ability and that's why he's looking blank all the time.

Hi BrightonMama:

I'm going to post you a link - I am not saying your son has this or labelling him - I'm saying that learning disorders are on a spectrum and a lot of what you are saying rings bells (DH is severely dyslexic and what you describe fits the kind of symptoms young dyslexic children exhibit):

www.dyslexia.com/library/symptoms.htm

Being labelled with a learning disorder can seem really scary but the point is there are a slew of incredibly talented people with dyslexia:

www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/about-dyslexia/famous-dyslexics.html

Being slow to speak
Having a more limited vocabulary
avoiding reading (but having good auditory skills of recall)

are all classic signs.

lack of coordination - inability to catch a ball for example - is another.

==========

Things to try and discuss

Ask your DC what happens to letters when he looks at them...

do they seem to jump or wiggle?
Do they appear all mixed up?

Ask him to spell out a word - c-a-t or a sequence of numbers 1-2-3-4-5 from a written piece of text. If he can't - there's a problem there.

===================

Now with DH as a very small child he absolutely would not accept that c-a-t was cat. It didn't look anything like a cat (fuzzy animal with pointy ears, long tail and whiskers). He didn't get phonetic sounds (they were also taught by flashcard which was an absolute disaster for him).

He did learn to read. At 13. He's been reading voraciously ever since.

Puberty often makes a huge difference for dyslexics. Major improvements can happen then - so often they are seen as late starters.

A friend's daughter found out in Y7 that viewing written text through a coloured filter or coloured lenses (she now has special glasses) made a huge improvement.

So my advice is don't fear having your child diagnosed/ tested at this young age. It's an attempt at getting to the bottom of whatever issue there is and learning how to adjust for it so he can progress and join in.

Also if diagnosed with a learning disability this can mean that he is given additional time to read (because processing speed is slower) and write (again because writing can be difficult) answers in formal testing (like SATs). This isn't giving him an advantage - it's making the playing field level.

My DH read somewhere that a dyslexic works 1/3 again as hard as a 'normal' just going through a day. If your son seems worn out by the end of the school day, if keeping up is a real effort, if he relies on his memory of what was said in class rather than what he has read/ done himself - these all point to someone with dyslexia.

There are severe to mild dyslexics - but it is possible to cope and play to your strengths.

My DH was labelled a dunce and made to wear the cap when a little boy in school (in England). DH is a University Lecturer now - his strength is a photographic memory which he utilizes in his work (pattern recognition). He has this ability precisely because he is dyslexic. He'll never be able to sort out which there/ their or they're he should use (he uses them interchangeably - no amount of my telling him the difference gets through and he can't multiply/ divide for toffee) but he's considered an expert at what he does.

HTH

Yes, hearing all fine - it's been checked twice, once quite recently.

I'm thinking a hearing problem too, blocked ears/glue ear? A lot of what you've said could be accounted for by him simply not hearing others rather than not understanding them.

Thanks for that, Past, and really reassuring about your DH.

Several things did jump out from that list - especially the zoning out part.

The teacher did mention that there was no 'testing' available until he was at least 7. Does that seem right?

Brighton:

I'm afraid I don't know about the testing thing.

Try this link to the British Dyslexic Association: www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/about-dyslexia/faq/parents.html#Q2

Question 3 agrees there's no particular age and explains it has to be through the school.

it can sometimes be a vision-related problem that can be corrected with larger text/ wider spacing/ coloured filters/ coloured lenses:

www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/about-dyslexia/further-information/eyes-and-dyslexia.html

I fear you are going to have to campaign a bit for this - but if he does feel things are shifting (zooming in and out) and dancing on the page it does sound to me like a visual problem then it is worth seeing an optometrist who specialises in this. The school SENCo should be able to help with organising this but the link I posted also says you can go through your GP.

HTH

Bit of a hi-jack, so sorry op but thank you so much for posting all that info Past. It bought a tear to my eye.

I have a dyslexic dd, age 9, who struggles so much and I hadn't heard that puberty can make a difference. It all rang so true, but it's great to read of good outcomes.

(sorry again op)

Have you done a proper hearing test, i.e with audiologist rather than school type hearing test? Sometimes, the hearing levels are OK, but there are issue with recognizing certain pitches, etc., i.e. more subtle problems that a hearing test that is not looking for this would not pick up.

I would certainly be worried. If anything, I found the teachers to be overly optimistic ("he'll grow out of it" variety) in general so if she is raising concerns (and she can put it in context of other kids), I'd take it seriously.

We had issues and did a private assessment with speech and language therapist (mid-reception, summer born, so at 4.5 years of age) and made it clear what the issues were. Two terms of speech and language therapy sorted it (3 times a week). I don't think she would have grown out of it. I am glad I didn't wait and, although it was expensive as we went private, it did make a huge difference.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions on potential dyslexia yet - it could be auditory processing issues or a thousand other things.

DS2 was assessed by SALT as teachers described similar problems - they also wanted me to get his hearing checked and check that he wasn't having absence seizures.

The SALT can use subtests of the CELF assessment, namely Concepts and Following Directions and Understanding Spoken Paragraphs. If DS hears what is said to him, the next stage for DS2 was to check whether he understood what was being said to him. In fact DS2 turned out to be on the 95th and 84th percentile. This led to all sorts of other SALT tests.

The not knowing what is going on and copying other children may not relate to a physical problem with hearing. DS1 has auditory processing disorder and was assessed by GOSH. His CELF USP was below the 1st percentile.

When the EP assessed DS2's cognitive ability we were all surprised to find out that he was on the 98th (VR) and 99.3 (NVR) as he was extremely reluctant to work and underachieving. Late development of speech can also be linked to high learning potential (as can underachievement and dreaminess). Visit the potential plus website.

APD assessment would need referral from a community paediatrician or audiologist so a GP referral would be needed.

As you and teachers have a number of wide concerns (DS2 doesn't understand jokes or idioms either) concerning the pragmatic and functional use of language, SALT should be involved.

DS2 is also seen by comm paed and is on the diagnostic pathway for ADD/ASD. He has been referred up to the consultant as no one is really sure whether his behaviour is a result of high learning potential alone (with asynchronous development/Dabrowski's overexcitabilities), ADD, ASD, Duel or Multiple Exceptionality or any combination of them.

There is not testing available for dyslexia until age of 7, but there are plenty of other assessments that are both speech and language assessments and EdPsych. We did SALT assessment first, but we also did a general cognitive assessment with an EdPscyh later.

I think irisha raises a good point and I'm not saying it's definitely dyslexia

just saying (especially as OP has had hearing checked in her DS 2x) it may be - and it does ring some bells...

Thanks all. Yes, it was a proper hearing test done done in an audiology department. The first was ordered by his SALT at about 4 years of age, the second a follow up was more recently.

Dyslexia had crossed my mind and he definitely does find reading and writing much harder than most, but I'm pretty sure it's something to do with his comprehension of language as a whole, if that makes sense?

My gut instinct is that it's something to do with his earlier speech and language problems. His speech is still not as good as his peers and his vocab is poor - he gets familiar words muddled and is slow to learn new ones. As a silly example yesterday, he wanted to point out the wreathe on someone's door and called it a rubber ring. I told him it was called a wreathe but he said "I won't remember that so I'll just call it a rubber ring." And he's right,he won't remember the right word (although I will keep telling him!)

Irisha - just wondered if the private SALT assessment expensive? And did the school take notice of what they said seeing as it was not the SALT attached to the school?

He could have a speech and communication delay, if he didn't form a strong base for his language skills earlier then he might find it difficult to build on them. Do you have any other concerns about his development?

KeepOn - how old was your DS when he had his tests? Am very interested in the understanding spoken paragraphs test as I think that's exactly what DS needs. He can follow instructions but would struggle with whole paragraphs of words - but perhaps that's his age?

He completely lacks interest in any books that aren't picture ones. I've tried everything (Flat Stanley, faraway tree, Roald Dahl) but he hates them because 'he doesn't undersand what I'm talking about'.

Sparkly - no other concerns really. His behaviour is fantastic, socially he has no problems at all. He has loads of friends and is genuinely a lovely, kind-hearted boy. In fact emotionally I'd say he was quite advanced for his age (eg shares his last sweet with his younger brother, even though he knows said brother would not do the same for him etc)

This may be a really stupid suggestion but would it be a good idea to go back to the beginning and start again ie rather than trying the age appropriate books go back to ones for younger children and hopefully that would help build his vocab .

It was £150 or so in London - the SALT just charged the normal rate for 1.5 hr assessment and then £30 or so for writing the report. The school was cooperative, we sent the report to them and SALT came to school and talked to them as well. I think you should still push the school for a referral/NHS SALT, but what I liked about private assessment is that explained to me which standardized tests they ran, how DD came out on which one, what it points to, what's usual/what's unusual, etc.

In year 1 he did the Renfrew Action Picture test, CELF including pragmatics profile with the SALT therapist. The school also called in a specialist SALT teacher who did ACE and narrative assessment. He also started seeing the comm paed and OT whilst in year 1. The EP was called in in year 2. I also had a private SALT do TOPS 3 assessment of higher level comprehension but I think DS would need to be at least 6 to do this. DS2 has just started year 3.

He has been visited termly in school btw since initial assessment with SALT and OT and since referral to the specialist teacher with the SLCN team. He's on SA+ atm but we applied for SA a couple of weeks ago after a classroom observation by the specialist behavioural nurse who is part of the diagnostic team revealed the true extent of how much he was struggling.

In my experience, if teachers raise a problem rather than dismiss your concerns, you should take it seriously. External experts have expressed shock at how severe problems were. I had no idea that DS2s behaviour was such a problem as staff had deliberately minimised it to me and his behaviour at home gave no clue.

Also this is not the sort of thing you want to find out about at parent's evening. You need a proper meeting with the CT and SENCO. What support is he getting at school?

KeepOn - that's the thing I'm finding upsetting about the whole parents evening thing. I got the sense he was struggling but getting no help.

I'm probably totally projecting my own feelings onto him, but am just remembering that panicky feeling at school when everyone else understands what they're supposed to be doing and is merrily writing away, and you're the only one who doesn't get it so you desperately copy and pray the teacher doesn't see. I don't want him to feel like that at five, it could put him off school for life.

At parents eve His teacher said "I've noticed he is looking blank when I talk and then he's copying other's work, or having to ask the other children what's going on". I wish I'd just said, well if you've noticed that, what are you doing to help him? But I was a bit taken aback by the whole thing, tbh.

I have an appointment with the Senco next week, and I'll make another appointment to see the teacher this time with my DH for support and a list of things to ask her. She is NQT so maybe didn't realise that if you were going to suggest a child has some sort of SEN, you shouldn't do it at parents' eve?

With the Senco, do you think should I ask for a SALT assessment, an EdPsych assessment or both?