WWYD? Average DS at bottom of year compared to peers.

[AngiBolen]

DS is in Y6, working at level 4c in maths. Is expected to get a 4b in SATs, his teacher is hoping for is 4a.

He goes to an average primary school (about 50 DC in two classes), but just happens to be in a year of lovely and able children. Many of the chidlren were tutored for the 11+ to get into the super selective grammar. DS wasn't tutored (we didn't put him in for the 11+ as didn't want him to go to the grammar school, so didn't see much point).

I think the fact that the other DC were tutored has left DS at a disadvatage in maths, and he was in the bottom group of the bottom set for maths in September, but was recently moved into a middle group....still it's a middle group of the bottom set.

DS belives he is not at all abe, even though he's roughly average nationally. It probably doesn't help his older brother is very able at maths.

I feel I need to do something to give DS a boost, academically, or at least his self esteem, just not sure what.

My niece was in this position at a lovely (but very small) primary left with 4s so completely average, but believing she was not good at particularly Maths.
She moved to fairly large school 250 pupils per year with 10 sets for Maths and English, starting in set 4 (1 being top) for both - this made her realise she was not so shabby, this booster her confidence and in year 8 was moved to set 2 for both.
Some times you need to move to the big pond to get some perspective.

Hi AngiBolen:

It sounds to me like your DS is middle table in a very able class - so first off I'd suggest you remind him of that to boost his confidence.

DD2 is in this situation - she's streets ahead of where DD1 was at this point, but clearly not top table material in a class with a lot of very driven Mums (many teachers) doing a lot of extra things at home.

My view in these situations is to sort out your priorities.

So in math if you want your DS to leave primary able to add/ subtract/ multiply/ divide to 3 digits - or whatever your feel is important - than work on that. If it is important that they know vertical methods of addition/ subtraction (column method) - make sure they do. If it's important that they know 'short' methods of multiplication/ division (ye olde long multiplication/ division) - then help there too.

It is a bit of a competition - there's no denying it. But like a footrace - if you turn to see how the other runners are doing you may end up losing those precious seconds so it is better to just focus on what you need to be working on right now.

The reality is that the senior school will very quickly re-assess your sons abilities regardless of how he preforms at KS2 SATs or what the school says about him. All you can really ask is that he tries his best.

In the meantime - if the issue is speed (which often coached 11+ pupils have) then consider having him play more maths games to help build up speed/ instant recall. So for example it may be that he knows his multiplication tables but really has to think through the tricky ones - try having him play Timez Attack: www.bigbrainz.com/ - the free version has two platforms (castle & dungeon) and you are cast as a little ogre running through these solving multiplication problems. It tests your DC first and starts where they're at. There's also a division version (so inverse multiplication skills - e.g. 45 divided by 9 is ?).

As he's Y6 have him play BBC Bitesize KS2 Maths games here : www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/ks2/ - it's good practice and geared to preparing DCs for KS2 SATs.

Woodlands Junior Mathszone: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/ - has all sorts of links to maths games/ worksheets - just click the area you'd like more practice in.

Maths as a subject is ideally suited to playing games - and it's a really easy thing to get them to play a game whilst you make dinner, wash up, etc... More often than not he'll just see it as 'killing time' or 'having fun' - but that practice is really beneficial and cumulatively will make a big difference.

HTH

Wow, thank you PastSellByDate

That's lots of really useful infor.

WWID... I think I would talk about who works the hardest, who is the nicest, who is the most helpful, and about the fact we aren't robots but we grown in bursts & plateaus so no predicting who will be smartest in future.

Can't imagine a school where 4b is the bottom of the class.

Can't imagine a school where 4b is the bottom of the class. lljkk - it's not the whole school, but DSs year are a really lovely, able year.

The school is in need of improvment, according of Ofsted.

That is a scarily able cohort though, Angi. My DD2 is in an able cohort, she is working at 5a/6c for maths so is at the very top and there are a lot of children who will get L5 in maths - but equally there are a considerable number out of the 55-odd who will struggle to get that 4b. Your son needs to know that when he goes to secondary, he will end up in a much larger year group with a much more normalised spread of abilities - if he gets 4a, he will not be in the bottom group.

And for the rest of it, go with what PastSellByDate said.

Totally agree with lljjkk.

Who has told you 4c is the bottom? Have you heard this directly from the teacher? Personally, if it was my child of show him online what the expectations for each year group were, showing him his national average and tell him how great that is and how proud I was. Then, I'd ask him how he feels about maths, is there anything he'd like to work on? Does he feel he gives it his all in maths lessons? If the answer to this is genuinely yes, then I'd be happy to leave it and make sure he did all his homework etc. when he goes to secondary he'll be back in an environment with lots of children working at low 4s and 3s.
If he ends up as a 4a at the end of key stage 2 he is a good little mathematician. I'd be pleased if it were my son and he should be proud of himself :)

I know DS is working at 4c. I know he was on the bottom table of the bottom set, but is now in the next to bottom group (so in the bottom 10 of 50 DC).DS has told me this, and the red, yellow, green labelling of tables makes it rather obvious. 10 DC in his year (that I know of) have scored high enough in the 11+ to be offered a grammar school place. There just happens to be no children in his year, as far as I can tell, who have SN. The HT gets a bit twitchy when he thinks I'm going to talk about DSs progress. I think he thinks I'm going to get funny about DS not doing very well. DS got a 2b in maths in Y2, so I figure he's making OK, if not amazing progress.

The high school DS will (I hope!) go to doesn't set in Y7. Again it will be pure luck as to the ability of his cohort as in primary school. He could be in a class of 30 very able DC, or 30 DC who are below average. I imagine/hope it will be a cross mix, though.

His teacher is very pleased with his commitment in class. He does his homework (reluctantly). I think the reluctance is partly due to him thinking he's not very good at maths.

I'm a bit confused about the middle group of bottom set remark, too.

If he was 2b at ks1 then the expectation is he should be a 4b at end of ks2...he'll probably surpass this so that's great.

I'm a teacher but my dd's are pre school age at the mo. I'd like to think I'd make my ds aware that its his progress that matters and that he shouldn't compare himself to others.

I actually suspect that if you watched a lesson he'd be performing a lot more near the middle than you think. Education and learning is a marathon not a sprint and comparing yourself to others does nothing but knock your confidence. I would just keep on banging on about how great you think an expected 4b/4a would be. I've known year 6 kids to start year 6 at 4c and move a level to end on 5c. Who knows. All he can do is his best and enjoy it

And on further reflection I'd be really really surprised if there wasn't a couple of children working at level 3...and probably some children with SN, if only at school action level which you wouldn't know about.

lljkk - there are 25 children in two classes. There is a higher and lower set/class for maths, and for english. DS is in the lower set for both. In those sets there are five tables of five children.

Does that make sense?

DS was on the bottom table of the bottom set. He has now moved up to a middle table of the bottom set. So out of 50 DC he's in the bottom 10.

He fares the same for English, but I think his reading and writing are poor. I have no idea how he is working at a level 4c for those. (He was a 2a at the end of Y2, although I suspect that was boosted and he was actualluy a 1a)

One thing Ofsted didn't like was that children didn't know what levels they were working at, what their targets were. I knew as a parent, becuase I'm that kind of nagging parent. The school is now trying to change that, but I'm not wure it's working as it should. DS is just realising he is nowhere as able as his best freind.

I do point out to DS that he has other atributes - he's kind, friendly sporty,musical. But school seems very focussed on maths and english atm.

Believe me, my DC's school has it's fair share of SN children! They just aren't in Y6.

School probably is focused on maths and English. They feel pressure from ofsted and he's in year 6. However, the school will only want the children to reach their potential. He is doing that- he is doing so well. Such a shame he doesn't feel like he is. Maybe he'd feel more empowered if he knew what his next step targets were?

I think Ofsted would like DS to know what his next step targets are.

School aren't quite there yet.

Interesting - dcs school were assessed by Ofsted recently and they made no comment about the dcs not knowing their level - I don't even know their level!

Ofsted seem to move the goal posts all the time. Last Feb when the school where inspected levels and targets and next steps seemed to be the way to go (even I knew this as a mere parent, and was cross the then HT didn't)......now it seems levels are not so improtant (as long as DC leave y6 doing OK) and I've heard NC levels are to be dropped altogether.

I would go on official websites and show him that 4c-4a is perfectly normal & respectable. Give him proof.

it's hard esp. with boys they can be so competitive and want to show off so badly, kids are irrational anyway, but at this age you still have huge influence, too. I would say there's a lot more in life that matters than braininess, but obviously schools focus on brainy things, especially at primary. Which is why going to secondary will be so good for him to find more things he might be good at. So he won't be feeling like he's bottom forever. Anyway, there will always be some people around him cleverer or not as clever as him, just like some are better or worse at sport, so don't get caught up in comparisons, just think about how you can do your best.

And everyone should be valued for what they can contribute. Wouldn't it be boring if we were all the same? A cleaner is just as important as a professor.

Look at all the valuable work done in society by people who aren't the brainiest. We need all kinds of people & skills in this world.

The other thing to point out is that braininess rubs off! Being lower ability in a clever clogs group helps motivate you to do your best.

I wouldn't categorise people who do well in school as the brainiest. They are good at certain subjects and other people are better at other subjects - some academic, some not. Intelligence is much broader than being skilled at maths and literacy in primary school and that's the point I would make. Find your talent and gain skill and confidence from that! And don't let anyone tell you that you are not intelligent just because you are not successful at school - what a pile of nonsense!

Can I point something else out - judging academic intelligence at the age of 10 by using the SATs is a very blunt tool. Dh was bottom of the class in year 6 at primary....he graduated faith a degree from Oxbridge. We all develop at different rates, some kids are lazy and despite doing well at primary will never be able to put the work in to ensure continued success - there was plenty of these kids at my Grammar School. Don't ever let your dc feel labelled or limited by the SATs. Education is a marathon not a sprint, the hare doesn't always finish the race first!

Damn predictive text - he graduated with a degree from Oxbridge.