What can you realistically expect from a school (KS1 levels)?

[pickledsiblings]

Can you 'expect' your DC to get a level 3 in writing at the end of KS1 because your previous 2 DC had level 3s at this stage? DC3 seems just as capable as them in other areas (more in some areas) but I'm pretty certain that unless I intervene there is no way he'll be getting that level 3 in writing or science.

DC1, girl was at a different school (private)
DC2, boy, joined school in question half way through Y1 (previously private)
DC3, boy, has been there since the beginning

I'm concerned, not just for my DC but for all the other DC that may be able to achieve more. Nothing is being flagged up for my DC and he'll pass through the system as a 'success'.

Should I speak to the teacher?

pickledsiblings - You were the one saying your son was not good at writing... I guess the school agree with you... you also say that with a bit more practice he could be much better yet you are not willing to do that bit of practice at home, I am seriously confused as you seem to be so shocked that your son will not be achieving level 3 at the end of year 2 unless you intervene (whatever that means!! your son either is a level 3 or he isn't - simple)! How is your son +3 years ahead in reading yet only reading stage 8, something here is not right, or do you think kids in year 5 are reading stage 8?

Hi pickled. He gets homework and spellings once a week, is a 3c in maths, 3b in reading. There are about 1/4 of his class who are similar in levels. I don't push him. He has lessons at school in violin and cornet, swimming and taekwondo outside school and reads for pleasure. He's the eldest of three - middle one has just started and is September born - so will be interesting to compare. The school is a one form entry, village school, good by OFSTED on new criteria.

Well, purple isn't three years ahead, is it? If you have a look at the book bands chart on Reading Chest or similar sites, purple is absolutely averagely good for Y2. I had a look because I seem to remember DD being on that level way before year 1. Maybe your son has a higher reading age in terms of decoding but isn't so hot on comprehension or something? Maybe he needs to be making more inferences and thinking more about language used by the writer etc?

What does he read at home and how does he get on with it in terms of higher order reading skills, not just actually being able to read the words?

www.readingchest.co.uk/book-bands

Sorry, that should say 'way before year 2'. I think she was on this level near the beginning of year 1.

Yes Huitre you are right, stage 8 is pretty average! Whether comprehension is good or not reading stage 8 is far, very far from being +3 years ahead. Some people like to fool themselves, since OP has other kids it's kind of shocking she doesn't know that stage 8 is average!

DD has already been assessed as working at a high level 3 btw. So state schools do get children to this level without too much outside input. Obviously I read with DD, or I used to before she started to find it dull. And I occasionally gave her something a bit mathsy to do for fun - the nRich website is a good source of stuff to stretch children. It's an all through primary, not an infant school so no advantage to them in assessing her as a level 3. And they have a very wide range of ability in her class, from children who can barely identify one more/one less or are on red or blue books, all the way up to children who are working on fractions and reading quite complex chapter books etc. This is not a boast, btw. I'm just offering this up for comparison. And it's not an 'outstanding' school, in fact it was only recently upgraded to good from a previous satisfactory. And I also have my concerns about the amount of differentiation offered, tbh.

xxwowxx, by intervene I just mean 'boost his skills' to use lijkk's phrase. The reason he is only on stage 8 (actually todays book is a stage 9 one) is because they work through them in order and we didn't do a quick turn around of books in reception as we were more interested in helping him to settle in at school than working at home. We've always read to him though.

After his reading assessment he skipped a stage. He does read more difficult stuff at home so I'm not too bothered as I'm sure the practice/exposure is good for him.

His writing is not good because he doesn't get enough practice, it's not rocket science. Writing is this schools weak spot.

Both my DC are doing well in a state school.

DS got L3 in everything (except S&L) in KS1 SATS and DD is currently is in yr1 and will do just as well (probably better). DS was pretty much on his own with this ie no/v little help from me (bar reading). DD does get more support at home probably because I know what I am doing a bit more having gone through it with DS.

Their school massively push the writing (esp with DD).

Also if he is reading 3+ years ahead, I don't understand why he is on stage 8. A good way to boost the writing would be to expose him to a wide variety of (some) challenging books of different genres etc to boost his word bank of adjectives (or whatever) and I simply cannot see stage 8 doing that.

It's not bad, though, purple! I mean, I'd be perfectly happy with my child working at that level. It means they are meeting age-related expectations perfectly fine. That's OK, as long as the child is also happy and enjoying learning/school. I suppose I would be concerned that the school is presenting this level as something out of the ordinary when it really isn't.

I'm obviously not making myself clear - I know that stage 8 is average. The teacher told me his reading age was +3. I know these two things don't equate. I am not bothered as everything is in place (comprehension fine, reasoning/inference fine) for the reading to take off.

With regards to the writing, everything is not in place. Pencil grip fine, spelling fine, content fine, but the exposure to doing actual writing is so very little that it would take a huge leap of faith from me to think that he'll get to L3 by the end of the year.

Is that any clearer?

Many reading age tests are simply a test of decoding skills so a school that teaches phonics skills well and then follows this up with a reading age test will see ages well above actual age, ditto for spelling ages. We have a number of children in year 2 with reading and spelling ages of 10+ but not all will achieve level 3 because their comprehension and maturity of writing don't match.

pickledsiblings
[[http://www.readingchest.co.uk/book-bands here is a correlation of
reading band compared to age expected to read it]]
so purple would be bang in the middle of Y2 expectations.

But, there are different tests for reading/spelling ages. These can take various forms e.g. the older 'look and say' tests are literally a list of words to learn how to read - my cousin got full marks when she was about 5 as my aunt simply taught her those words to read, she couldn't read much else! Newer tests check comprehension as well - more like choose a word to fit into the sentence so that it makes sense.
These may not correlate exactly into reading levels as it depends which tests were used etc. If a child were good at decoding the words in the look and say test because they had good phonics knowledge, but didn't know what they actually meant it wouldn't be much use them having a reading book full of those words for example.

"Also if he is reading 3+ years ahead, I don't understand why he is on stage 8. A good way to boost the writing would be to expose him to a wide variety of (some) challenging books of different genres etc to boost his word bank of adjectives (or whatever) and I simply cannot see stage 8 doing that.'

simpson, that's the very solution that my 10 year old DS1 came up with and it makes perfect sense, thank you.

Oops lots of cross posts there - as made cup of tea whilst writing! Sorry :)

OK, a few things.

Does your son actually like writing? If he doesn't really enjoy it, it's quite likely that he's not going to bother that much with it at school where a teacher cannot be on top of every kid in the class when he or she probably has children to look after who are struggling to write a sentence and form letters correctly. This is a reasonable position for the teacher to take. It is far more important that those children get extra input in order to get them to a reasonable standard by the start of KS2 than for your child who is doing OK and is clearly reasonably intelligent to get a level 3. And I say that as someone whose child is not getting much attention at school at all because she has already surpassed their expectations for the end of this KS at the beginning of this year. I do believe that her needs are fewer and less important than the needs of the child I read with yesterday who still can't really blend and is on red books in Y2. I do not think that she will receive adequate differentiation this year, but then it's not so bad for us as I know I can help her myself (I do wonder what happens to children whose parents can't help but I suspect teachers will be well aware of that).

Does your son get a wide exposure to books of a higher standard than purple, ideally independently and for fun? Writers are partly made from readers. Exposure to different and more interesting language will inform his writing. I would want to see my child reading something other than school reading schemes as often as possible, especially if I thought that his reading ability was more advanced than the school books he was being given. This is the main way that he can absorb style and use of language and turn of phrase and the joy of a beautiful sentence without it being a chore, because reading, for a child who can do it easily, is hopefully fun. If my child didn't find it fun, I'd be looking for books that would make it enjoyable and getting him to do it as much as possible without making it into a chore.

How much does your child write outside school? DD is writing all the time. Lists, diaries, restaurant reviews (seriously, she is a bit nuts, she has a whole notebook devoted to restaurant reviews - including McDonalds ), making her own newspapers, stories, accounts of days out we've had. I don't, you know, tie her to a chair and make her do it! But she likes it and views it as an enjoyable pastime. I am sure this is at least half the reason that she's working at a high level - because she does it off her own bat and loves it and is constantly practising her craft. And she takes it very seriously. She will often debate her choice of words in a story with me and ask what I think is better etc. She wants to do it really well. Can you make writing fun for him and give him some opportunities to do it for fun as often as practical?

Finally, why do you want him to achieve level 3? You do know, don't you, that it will make very little difference to him in the end? Nobody will ever care what he got in his KS1 SATS. He probably won't care. You won't care by the time he gets to school leaving age. It doesn't really matter that much....

How far a child is ahead in reading does not necessarily automatically translate into what ORT stage they are reading, esp in bookbag. Some schools seem to have some kind of odd policy where they will only allow certain age children to have certain colour books in the bookbag but not only use different books in school but also run strange tests on the children in school. I'm beginning to think that certain schools only want the parents to have access to certain bands of reading books!

Do you read TO him?

In my experience there is very little correlation between reading and writing. Some people say this is even more true for boys. Certainly my own ds still had writing that looked like a drug crazed spider had walked across the page when he had a reading age of 16.

Can I ask why it matters so much?

Have the school said he can achieve L3 in writing?

Do you know what his current NC level is?

If it is down to him not wanting to write, bribery might work

My DD (yr1) loves the Usborne Write your own story book.

Huitre, thank you so much for that great post. Your DD sounds very like my DD at that age. DD loved writing so much we sent her on a writing holiday in Y4 and she loved it!

The boys don't mind writing and I do try and find opportunities for them to practice. My eldest likes to write on the computer and always has a story on the go. It's the little one that I'm concerned with. I've just looked through his folder and I can see that his comprehension is great and he uses some nice words in his writing but the writing itself is really tiny and I don't know how the teacher reads it. His spelling is not good, lots of missing vowels with words often phonetically plausible but wrong.

Why on earth she is happy with this is beyond me.

Writing well is a basic skill that we (society) should be equipping our children with.

What about the parents that won't bother boosting their kids writing skills because they don't realise they need to?

What about the little kids who come home an unheated house to eat pot noodles for tea, get bullied by teenage siblings and stay up until midnight watching slasher flicks while mom goes out on the pull in the pub until 2am having never taken any interest at all in their child's life. A bit of ignorance about writing levels, is the least of the unfairness doled out to children.

I think you expect too much of schools.

simpson, I have no idea what his current NC level is.

School have said that he is doing fine .

He will write, I just have to facilitate it.

Don't schools do handwriting practise anymore? I know learning spellings doesn't improve children's spelling ability but at least there'd be the practice at writing them out and then when doing the actual test.

I am sure there is more that the school could/should be doing to help him improve.

lijkk, it is precisely those kids that need the skills that I'm talking about - basic writing skills.

DS2 did a piece of work on owl babies, the WALT (We Are Learning To) was 'use adjectives, adverbs and connectives to improve our sentences'.

Seriously!

He can tell you what these things are but he can barely write a legible sentence.

Why on earth she is happy with this is beyond me.

Well, because that's probably as much as is sensible to hope for at this stage for the vast majority of children! If someone else can read his writing and understand it without too much effort, if he's using interesting words, if his motor control is good enough that he can write so small, then he's doing OK. In fact, better than OK.

The size thing will probably sort itself out as time goes on. DD also likes to write in really titchy writing but I suspect it's just because she can and I know she can write at a sensible size when she wants to (and I don't bother to make a big deal out of it because, really, she's a bright kid, she won't leave school unable to write). I bet your son can write at a sensible size too, if he wants to. How about a small reward for each page of writing completed at home at a sensible grown up size? As for the spelling, I think it comes with time and reading widely is part of it because your child will unconsciously absorb spellings from seeing them a lot - I would not really be happy that a good reader was on purple level at this stage and would be asking for them to be brought on a bit and given something more challenging because the vocab just isn't wide enough. If the school didn't want to, I'd be asking why not. But if, as you say, your school likes them to read every book in every level then just ignore the school books a bit. Read them on the first day or two after the books are given out and then give him TinTin or Asterix or something fun which plays with language and will give your son something to draw on later on when it really matters. And if they ask why you are ignoring the reading books, well, tell them!

Having said all that, if your son is confident in writing and happy to do it, I wouldn't worry too much. The mechanics of it, including spelling, improve with age and further teaching, which will become more prevalent higher up the school, and it sounds like you will be helping him so he will not leave school unable to spell! It will be OK. The most important thing, IMO, is just to try to foster a love of this kind of activity and to support him in his independent exploration of it as much as you are able.

I do think that possibly selective and non-selective schools approach this from slightly different perspectives, and with good reason, so possibly you need to try and trust the system you've chosen and see how it pans out. You're not going to let him leave school unable to write and the school doesn't want him to either....

Don't schools do handwriting practise anymore?

YES! DD does handwriting practice every day. She still does it all tiny, mind you, and likes to put hearts on top of her i and j letters. But they practise all the time.