Chanting times tables

[snailbrain]

My dd's year 3 class have been doing this, but they only say the answers eg 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. Consequently she doesn't know the answers to times tables questions out of sequence. Is this approach standard, and if so can someone explain the benefit to me? Many thanks.

In my opinion, it's a good start but it isn't going to give her the ability to answer random quick-fire times table questions which is ultimately where she needs to end up.

But it's not for life - they get forgotten. You need to keep it ticking over otherwise she'll lose it again. A colleague tells the story of how when she went on maternity leave she was better at her times tables than her year 6 class - when she came back 9 months later they were better than her because they'd kept practising and she hadn't.

When we "chant" in my class we chant forwards, backwards, all the odd numbers, all the even numbers, and random numbers I pick up from a pile....

"Yes, sadly, this is how it's taught nowadays." No! it isn't... children are taught to count on and back in 1s, 2s, 3s etc but this isn't to be confused with times tables

what mrz said. It might be what happened to your dd, laqueen, but that's NOT standard practice across all schools.

Also, I disagree about them being forgotten. I had to learn all mine (to 12x12) in Yr 3 and I can still do them within 1-2 seconds 40+ years later. Invaluable skill.

But it cannot all be done within school hours - if you want your child to know them that well, that quickly, you have to put in the practice at home as well.

They do this to start with. Then in yr4 they go more indepth. On year 5 they learn them so strongly that they have 3 seconds to answer 7x7, what are 6 sixes etc. by the end if year 5 they are supposed to know them inside-out.

What Oblimov said.

Yes - my dc started to learn like this - not really as useful as learning (by rote) that 3 fours are 12, 4 fours are 16, etc., so you can recall them, rather than having to work it out.

I think whether you forget them or not can depend on your memory skills and how much you continue to practice them.

I had to learn them to 12x12 in year 3 as well. More importantly though my memory skills are better than average, I was tested on them every week from year 3 to year 9 and my current job involves a lot of arithmetic so I'm using them daily.

It might be that LaQueen's dd does remember them for life but I'm not sure that instantaneous recall after 3 weeks of intensive practice all the time, every day is a good indicator of whether she will or not.

I've had children in Y2 who were secure with up to 12X also knowing the related division facts and able to answer instantly but it requires daily practice. If a child is secure they don't forget.

Yes, sadly, this is how it's taught nowadays.

Yep, total bollocks.

"He explained that schools are mainly crap at teaching tables nowadays"
And how would he know how most schools teach tables?

We have daily times tables tests, up to 12x12 and including related facts, division facts and random facts, 25 questions in a minute.
You HAVE to know times tables facts, counting up and down is a start but only a start!

You HAVE to know times tables facts, counting up and down is a start but only a start!

I think this might be the key to the issue. Skip counting is the start to a progression in skills but doesn't mean it's the end point or the only way tables are going to be taught. I wouldn't be at all worried by a child that could only count in 3s or 4s at this point in year 3. I might be worried if they didn't seem to have been taught any tables facts by the end of the year. I'd certainly be worried if they got to the end of year 4 and could only count up and back but hadn't been taught any tables facts.

However, I've never known a school to not teach any of the times tables or to only teach them by counting.

Our school starts times tables chanting in year 3 - properly with the q and a. They have weekly tests and earn badges for passing.

Then the badges are taken away if they fail retests. Once they've got each multiplication badge they have to do the division fact one for the same set of times tables.

It's the same system for the whole of juniors and seems to me to be exactly the same as what I did in school (only we couldn't afford luxuries like badges in the 70s )

My GS doesn't know his times tables properly and he is in Yr 6. The school tell me my methods for help at home too old fashioned.

I am 51 and learnt at a church school by chanting them as 1 x 2 is two etc. I can still remember them all to this day and randomly, together with my fear of the teaching staff.

Funny thing is that my GS's headteacher was in a class with me at the same school.

My children were struggling with times tables too and my DD yr4 says she hates maths. Went to science museum in Manchester over the summer and saw a new board game there which looked fun and said it helped with numeracy/times tables at the same time. We ordered it and have been playing it regularly ever since it arrived. It's good fun for all of us because we can play at different levels and our times tables have REALLY improved. My DD even asks it we can play it as she doesn't realise that she's doing maths when she's playing the game. Has really helped DS Yr6 too (me & OH have also improved our skills which is a bonus).

There are definitely things that we can do at home to help their times tables which are not as boring as chanting but do work.

Let me know if you want the link.

The best way to teach tables is to use lots of different ways and find what works for your child. In my class we do tables many different ways.
Skip counting, up and down.
Chanting the full table, up and down.
Writing them on whiteboards, rub out and write again, faster.
Colouring patterns
Games online (hit the button or Squeebles for example)
Sing the songs with Percy Parker.
Completing grids.

Hi snailbrain:

Multiplication is simply multiple additions

Counting up at intervals - is frequently used in YR & Y1

Often starting with even and odd numbers and counting by twos.

by twos (or even numbers) 2, 4, 6, 8, 10....

odd numbers 1,3, 5, 7, 9, ....

Counting by 5s and 10s is often next:

5, 10, 15, 20,....

10, 20, 30 , 40....

and some schools also introduce counting by 3s.

Why?

Well these are at the root of most times tables families.

If you know how to count up to 100 - formally introducing the x1 table is a doddle. Anything x 1 is itself. 99,999 x 1 = 99, 999. EASY.

If you know how to count by twos - formally introducing the x2 table is a doddle.

2 x 1 = 2
2 x 2 = 4
2 x 3 = 6
2 x 4 = 8
etc...

at some point this will also be explained as doubling.

Doubling is key because x4 and x8 (and in fact x 6 and x12) all can be worked out if you know how to double.

x4 - 4 x 4 is the same thing as doubling (2 x 4) = 2 x 2 x 4 = 16

x8 8 x 4 is the same thing as doubling (2 x 4) and then doubling it again - or 2 x 2 x 2 x 4

If you can count by 3s again learning the three times table is a doddle:

3 x 1 = 3
3 x 2 = 6
3 x 3 = 9
3 x 4 = 12
etc......

Once you know your 3s - x 6 is just doubling your x3 table:
so 6 x 3 is the same thing as doubling (3 x 3) = 2 x 3 x 3 or doubling (9) = 18.

If you know your six times table - then the same method works for x 12 - just double.

So if you know 4 x 6 = 24 then you know 4 x 12 = double (4 x 6) or double (24) = 48

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Now if you factor in that you should already know x5 & x10 - see what you've achieved:

x0 (let's take that as given - anything x 0 - 0)
x1
x2
x3
x4
x5
x6
x8
x10
x12

so that leaves x7 (which is just something you have to memorise - save it for last and you need only memorize 7 x 7 = 49 - because you've learned it for all other tables).

x9 has two tricks.

flip your hands palm upwards so so your thumbs are at each end - starting from left thumb number them 1 - 10. Now fold down the finger you're multiplying 9 by. So 4 x 9 - results in the left ring finger folding down - you'll have 3 fingers up to the left of the folded 4th finger and 6 fingers up to the right = the left fingers = tens and the right fingers = units. So the answer to 4 x 9 is 36.

The pattern:

1 x 9 = 09
2 x 9 = 18 number in the tens column is always one less
3 x 9 = 27 than what you're multiplying 9 by
4 x 9 = 36
5 x 9 = 45
6 x 9 = 54 both digits always add up to 9
7 x 9 = 63
8 x 9 = 72
9 x 9 = 81
10 x 9 = 90

doesn't work beyond x10.

11 x 9 = 99
12 x 9 = 108

however the all digits add up to 9 thing still works

11 x 9 = 99 and 9 + 9 = 18 and 1 + 8 = 9

12 x 9 = 108 and 1 + 0 + 8 = 9

--------

x11

well it's easy up to and including x 9 - just write whatever you're multiplying 11 by down 2 times.

1 x 11 = 11
2 x 11 = 22
3 x 11 = 33
and so on....

from 10 there is a trick.....

take the number you're multiplying 11 by and separate the first and second digit. In the middle add the two digits together. This may involve carrying but the trick always works.

For example:

15 x 11 - trick 1 - (1+5) - 5 = 165 (check on calculator - it works).

19 x 11 - trick 1 - (1 + 9) - 9 = 1 - (10) - 9 (now we can't have two digits in the middle column so have to carry)

so that's 19 x 11 = (1 + 1) - 0 - 9 = 209 (try the calculator it works).

------

That leave 7 x 7 = 49. you know all the rest - and all tables 0 - 12 are now learned.

HTH

Hi snailbrain:

Sorry got so wrapped up in things times tables forgot to mention there is a fringe benefit in knowing to count by intervals - helps in addition (and if you have a savvy teacher who has you count backwards - evil I know - but will help in subtraction).

So addition:

knowing to count in at intervals of 1, 2, 3, and 5 basically means you can handle adding digits to 9.

11 + 1 - easy that's 12

11 + 2 - easy that's 13

11 + 3 - easy that's 14

11 + 4 - now you may be able to make that jump (seeing it as 4 + 1) but you can also tackle it as two jumps of two - 11 + 2 = 13 and 13 + 2 = 15.

11 + 5 - now you may be able to make the whole jump of 5 - but again can split it as +2 and then +3.

11 + 6 - again one whole jump or seeing it as 6 + 1 - but you can do it as 11 + 3 = 14 and 14 + 3 = 17.

11 + 7 - again whole jump or seeing it as 7 + 1 - but can be 3 jumps of 11 = 2, 13 +2, and 15 + 3 = 18

11 + 8 - whole thing, +5 and +3 or +2, +2, +2 and +2

11 + 9 - whole thing - or 9 + 1 or smaller intervals - (11 + 3) +3 and +3.

So learning these tricks of counting on ultimately will feed back into addition with larger numbers and if taught counting backwards - can also help with subtraction.

HTH