Prayers in school

[babybouncer]

DS is in Reception and a few days ago he mentioned something about saying prayers at school. At parents' evening I asked about them and his class teacher showed me the three Christian prayers they say each day (before break, lunch and home time). She obviously doesn't make a big deal out of it (although they do have to put hands together and bow heads) and it is the school's response to the daily act of worship schools have to provide. As a non-Christian, this makes me feel really uncomfortable. I don't want my son to be thanking God for food or asking Him to bless his home. Three times a day also seems excessive.

What do other schools do?
And am I being too sensitive?
But really, prayers three times a day?

Yeah funny that a young child doesn't fully grasp the complexities of religion and could worry about their non believing family not spending eternity in heaven with them after being told exactly that by a teacher.

If a child gets to school and has never heard of God of course it is an exciting concept, not to mention misunderstood; and doubly exciting if it upsets your parents! It wears off and the misunderstandings iron themselves out. 6yrs is the peak time for interest and misunderstandings, it is a phase. Why not use it for discussion? Children have their own views if you bother to listen.

I doubt you would find a teacher who said that, it isn't even Christian thinking.

Heaven, if it exists, isn't some cosy club for those who partake in organised religion!

I very strongly object to not being able to choose a school where non religious reflection is the default, rather than bringing worship into it at all.

Religious education - yes.

Dressing up dogma for children - no. It has no part to play in education IMO.

Obviously not practical for a lot of people, but this was one of the main reasons we took our children out of school to home educate them, They now learn about religions, different beliefs etc but that is it. They are not made to pray or sit through religious assemblies. The school they went to was C of E and they had a prayer corner in each classroom, had to write out the Lord's prayer and many other things... the crunch point came when I tried to take my eldest out of assemblies that involved teaching creationism as fact and was blocked buy the HT and on further discussion discovered they don't even mention evolution as an alternative. Disgusting in my opinion. Gives me The Rage just thinking about it.

I don't know why people think children are so stupid:they are capable of their own views and making up their own mind, and they do. Ultimately people's views on religion are nothing to do with 'my mummy thinks' or 'my teacher thinks'. The only thing that matters is what you think. Have more faith in your children.

As others have said, you have the right to withdraw your child from this. You could ask him to simply sit quietly during those moments. He needn't leave the room or draw attention to it, so he's not singled out in any way.

FWIW - I teach in a school where there is nothing remotely approaching a daily act of workship. Whole school assembly once a week might include a prayer only if the local minister is visiting (eg Harvest). Our year group assemblies happen once a week and have no faith element at all. That's it! We're Good according to Ofsted, earlier this term.

I should say...

I went to a primary school who evidently ignored the "of a broadly Christian nature" part of the rules. We had daily assembly but sang old Carpenters or Beatles songs, or songs about animals. I later went to a Christian senior school with an actual chapel and compulsory services, but even then there wasn't anything every day and RE was on a "teach about" basis and not compulsory for GCSE, etc.

So when DC1 started school I just had a hazy idea that only denominational schools would have organised acts of worship because ... well ... what on earth is the point of a "normal" state school doing so?

To expand on my "add value" comment, I think everything in schools ought to have some beneficial purpose. Each lesson is intended to improve/introduce skills or impart information. Playtime lets the brain recharge and lets off pent-up energy. Eating together promotes healthy eating habits and socialisation.

Assembly fosters community spirit and allows for the presentation or sharing of information/ideas in a different setting from the smaller group in a classroom. What does a collective act of worship add to that? Genuinely. If it's part of a denominational school then it's part of the community-building, but what does it add to a non-denominational school?

HE is the ultimate censorship, a way to make sure that they only get the parent's view. I am more 'it takes a village.........' view.

The issue is that the only right to choose that you have is to choose to withdraw your child from the activity in school, which immediately introduces division where there need not be any if the activity was about spirituality in general, or an opportunity for reflection, rather than a Christian based exercise.

It should be our choice as parents to be able to access a secular education. Every other faith seems to have that choice, why not us?

I think learning about beliefs and religions are very important. I think discussing the idea of God is important. I think understanding and enjoying the common religious traditions of a country is important.

I think telling children to pray to a Christian God regardless of their own religious background is wrong.

The argument that hearing about God at school won't turn your child into a Christian is irrelevant - it's the principal of the thing. Why should my child be told that something DH and I vehemently believe is wrong is actually right?! Imagine it were about politics instead and all the children were presumed to be Tories - you wouldnt' say ah but they'll have their chance to vote Labour when they're older, just ignore it...

RE lessons are the place to teach about different faiths, school itself should be secular.

Absolutely. Why should religion be the default. As a person without religion bringing up a child who is without religion why should he have to have religion in his life just because he's starting school?

You have to know your history to understand why it is the default. Henry VIII is the start. You will have secular schools if the church and the state separate.

Most country areas only have a Cof E school and the state can't afford to buy the land or buildings.
People go about normal lives not realising that we are a Christian country and so it comes as a shock when their child starts school. I think that it will come to change, but not at the moment.
How many parents bother asking the Head about collective worship before their child starts?

Yes, the church and state should separate.

Yes we did ask about collective worship. But knowing about it in the abstract and having a child coming home spouting things we don't believe in is entirely different.

I also spoke to our LEA RE coordinator about the content of RE lessons because they are so Christianity centric. I would welcome greater diversity.

I still think head teachers have a large degree of latitude on this and therefore can unduly influence the direction and form the worship takes. My sons are in a state primary, not C of E. The most they ever did in terms of Christian worship in the past was have an assembly and sing a kid-friendly hymn. Now there is a new head, he is inviting Christian groups into assembly, they are singing loads of hymns and my littlest and most susceptible son is asking me lots of questions about why I don't believe in God. I do feel quite resentful about this. If the school were also inviting Jewish groups, Muslims, humanists, atheists etc to come and give assembles I wouldn't mind so much but it's the breathtaking arrogance of assuming all children need to be inculcated with the Christian message that I object to. And yet I don't want to remove my children from the act of worship - why should they feel in any way different from their peers?? And why should atheism be presented as an extremist option, taken up by uppity, over-opinionated parents? The onus should surely be on schools to put across a balanced viewpoint. I don't have any problem with them learning about Jesus and singing hymns as long as the other fantasies religions are indulged in a similar way.

Some of us who object are actively Christian. You don't have to disagree with the message to disagree with its being sent.

I don't know why people think children are so stupid:they are capable of their own views and making up their own mind

Which is why we let 5 year olds choose what to eat and when, what to wear in the snow and what time to go to bed.

Until this law is changed the best solution I've seen is using a Quaker model for assemble ie a few minutes silence.

We do control what 5yrs olds do, they need to eat, sleep etc but thankfully we are not able to control what they think. We can try but we can't succeed.

There is no way that you can do it. A child can tell parents and teachers what they think they want to hear, but you can't know what they really think, unless they choose to tell you.

OP, if you're uncomfortable about taking your child out because of him being singled out by this could you possibly talk to the teacher and ask that DS isn't taken out but just stand quietly for the prayer, that way he's not actually joining in but the other children wont notice unless he tells them?

My children are both at Catholic schools so pray 3 times a day (morning, lunch and home time) which I think is right as I have chosen to send them to a Catholic school so I expect Catholic worship to be part of the day but I don't think non-faith state schools should be pushing christian prayers as that's not fair on parents who have other beliefs/who don't want their child being told what to believe at school.

My son had very clear views from about year 3. They were all told to draw a picture of the nativity scene - he drew horns on the baby Jesus as a protest. He simply could not understand why anyone would believe in god. He refused to go to church for the Easter and Christmas services. He started reading The God Delusion in year 5.
He knew his own opinion. He read and learnt by himself, it wasn't from me.

Good point, Horry.

I hope I don't come across as not respecting Christianity. I do, and I believe strongly in people's rights to practice their faiths with respect. I am interested in faith.

But I don't share one and I don't think there is a place for it in non faith schools.

But most people have not chosen a faith school, it is the only school.