How bad can a primary school really be?

[MonkeysTypewriter]

DC1 due to start reception 2014.I have school visits booked in, but our choice is quite restricted.

The closest 2 schools are faith schools and good reputation (and very convenient). DC would have got in on 2012 based on distance to either, but in 2013 no one got in to either based on distance.

The next nearest schools haven't the best reputation. I am interested to see what they are like when I visit but we are talking really poor KS2 results, special measures, 'the majority of pupils start school without a basic understanding of English' [Ofsted quote]. People often say that schools coming out of special measures can be great for various reasons, but we are talking about a school that has bumbled along at the bottom for years not one that has unepectedly fallen down temporarily.

DH and I were talking about how bad it would have to be not to send DC there - thinking chaos in the classroom, attention on difficult children so other children don't learn, bullying rife and not tacked etc. So my question is - how bad would a school be before you refuse to send your child there?

We do have other choices, such as find a school with a vacancy somewhere in the county (would be none in this town or the next but some of the villages have some space some years). The local private school is same cost as nursery (including some after-school care) so in theory we could afford that until year 2 when the cost goes up dramatically.

I do promise to go to the open days with an open mind though!

I would go to the open day. Local gossip where I am always says this one school is awful - it just got outstanding. I imagine it was awful 10 years ago. Meanwhile the outstanding school hasn't actually been inspected in 7 years.

it's all do with how well the school sounds your child ime, which is where the 'reputation' thing can be misleading.
Dd is at a good w outstanding primary, our local school but people move in to be there. It didn't suit ds - I moved him from there to a RI primary and he's doing fine.
I would say that in a RI or SM school staff can be under a lot of strain. You can pick up a lot by visiting. Ultimately, you don't really know until it's too late ... Wish I'd moved ds years ago.

exactly, arabella

Our village school had a good reputation for years while bumbling along doing a pretty poor job, then it was inspected and put into special measures (the only positive things the report said were that the children enjoyed coming and music teaching was satisfactory. It's reputation, deservedly, hit rock bottom and it's only in the last few years developed a reputation of a desirable school - it went into SM 14 years ago and was inspected and deemed good less than 18 months later following a complete change of staff. I wouldn't put much faith in reputations and would take a look at ofsted reports and combine that with visits and how you feel they would 'fit' your family along with the gut-feeling you get from the place.

All of the ones I have a choice of, including the faith schools, are RI or SM! Although I mentioned reputation in my post, I really have been trying not to pay attention to reputation, and I haven't been living where I am long enough to hear much about them, although I have my prejudices from when I was a child and lived in the area! My comments were made specifically about factual things (ofsted, KS2 results etc).

I will wait until I visit and stop wondering what if, it isn't helpful. I was just musing really that in this day and age surely no schools are out and out lawless places that are awful.

'the majority of pupils start school without a basic understanding of English' [Ofsted quote] This wouldn't necessarily worry me, if the pupils make rapid progress once they arrive, IYKWIM. Our school recently came out of SM, and many many schools are rated RI or even SM without any significant behaviour management problems IMHO.

If you basically have a choice of all not-so-good schools I would be selecting my choices on the basis of progress rather than necessarily achievement, good pastoral care, and some signs that able children get good support too. Looking at the Ofsted dashboard to see if there is a massive gap between the achievement/progress of different groups.

And the atmosphere/friendliness of the school etc. A good nosey at the website, looking at recent newsletters etc can be handy too.

Except for ours, which is awful and has next to nothing on it.

I agree that progress of the children is vital but I think you need more than that. Schools that have to work very hard to get good progress sometimes have to overlook the other things you might want to see in a school. I would definitely check to see if plenty are learning musical instruments, do they have any sport, what is the art like, do they have interesting school trips? Has the school got inspiring classrooms? If the children are below average when they start, will this describe your child? Or, would you prefer your child to be able to work with a good number of bright children because they will be stimulated by them? Are the parents on your wavelength? What clubs does the school offer? Schools really are not just about Ofsted inspections but Ofsted look at a relatively narrow aspect of a school and a school can be outstanding but not provide the type of education you actually want.

The absolutely shit nursery our DS went to for a year got an "outstanding" rating just after we left, and we have absolutely no idea why unless they gamed the system (so bad we were concerned for our child's physicsl safety and we're usually very laid back).

Ofsted ratings should be taken with a fistful of salt. Go to the open days and get a feel for the place.