Behaviour management - should I mention this? Not very happy with it.

[Stillhopingstillhere]

Ds is in reception and they have a marble system. The class get marbles for individual behaviour but they also lose them for individual behaviour too.

I don't like the taking the reward away after it's been earnt but more to the point it seems stupid for one child to be behaving well, only for another to lose the reward minutes later.

Ds came home and said 'I got two marbles at school because I tried really hard, but then Sam lost one of them so I might as well have only tried hard to get one.'

This seems mad! Plus 'Sam' has special needs but is always in trouble, he frequently loses marbles and is then singled out. Ds said 'my class doesn't like Sam, we would have had our treat by now if he didn't keep losing marbles.'
Not very happy with singling out individual children in a reception class.

Should I say something?

The system doesn't seem entirely fair as it is based on individual behaviour but the reward is given to all. I can only assume the teacher is trying to encourage team work. IMHO they would be better off rewarding whole class behaviour (a particuarly good morning, everyone remembering their books, quite linning up etc) than individuals.

However I disagree with your son that 'I may as well have only earnt 1' If he hadn't earnt two, lets say the class had 10 to start with, they would now be on 9. As it is, they are on 11 because they earnt 2 and lost 1. They are still better off. Even if 'Sam' had lost both, they would be better off than if your DS hadn't earnt them at all. Encourage your child to keep earning, they will only get the treat if they are good. Their good behaviour will eventually cancel out Sam's.

I dont think you should tell the teacher their system is odd or unfair but simply ask how it works. I wouldnt mention Sam either as it sounds like you're moaning. Just say your son is sad when they loose points he had earnt. But, please be prepared to accept what the teacher says. Such is life.

Oh, a load of schools have these type of systems.

I try to play it down, simply because I want my child to be behaving properly because it is right, not for a reward, or doing his work well, because he is interested in it.

I get the premise that it helps encourage / discourage when they don't really understand but think the whole thing can go a bit overboard sometimes. Also if they don't fully understand, and are punished for this, it can be a bit unfair and cause unnecessary stress.

So I would simply play it down and tell him he can have a whole bag of marbles if he saves up his pocket money. Explain the rights and wrongs by all means, but play the rewards down, they are always so subjectively handed out (because children come from different starting points in being able to behave well) anyway.

I would ask to see the behaviour/rewards/sanctions policy of the school, not just because of the marbles scenario worrying you, but because it will be useful for you to know the school approach as your DS goes up the school.

Please challenge the school if any punishment seems unfair, as punishment must be FAIR (this is the legal framework in which schools operate).

It was more that I felt bad for Sam! 4 seems a bit young to be held resoonsible for class failure!

I agree if it was for whole class behaviour and not pin pointing individuals it would be ok.

I think whole class peer pressure is a bit much to ask of four and five year olds, tbh. I don't really like these behaviour management systems much anyway, but for very young children it is really quite enough to ask of them to be responsible for their own behaviour without asking them to keep tabs on everyone else as well. DD's class does the marble thing, but they are six and seven and have a bit more idea of how to apply peer pressure. Having said that, I still think they're a bit young. The first year she was at school was great - it was literally, you doing something naughty, you will be told off or you are behaving well and we are pleased with you. And that was it. Then there was a management change and it's been all downhill from there, frankly. Golden clouds and yellow spots and whatever. DD finds it irritating and is really pissed off by the marbles thing. She finds it enormously annoying that they are given marbles for something that is in the control only of the few children who regularly misbehave. I offered her a marble jar at home but she said 'no thanks, I'd rather you just shout at me when I'm naughty'.

DD is 10 and we've kicked off at school twice, with the most recent ding-dong being over a series of collective punishments.

You bring up your child to be fair, decent & just, then some bleeping nit-wit with the moral integrity of a tub of lard does something that essentially depends on the good children putting pressure on, resenting (perhaps aggressively) the bad child. Meanwhile the latter often doesn't care and the punishment that was theirs to receive is diluted across the class, weakened.

It's at moment like this when I want it to be mandatory for teachers to be parents, just so they've had some experience of what it's like when your child routinely comes home correctly complaining about something not being fair and the best you can do as a parent is stumble through some feeble excuse, or alternatively create some early-onset cynicism that really doesn't sit so well with the younger end of childhood.

Excuse me, but I was a teacher before I was a parent and I still hate these type of systems. They're not used at my school.

It's the parents that keep wanting these ridiculous systems in place. And want to know when we're going to have "golden time" that seems to be the new buzz word. "Why aren't you rewarding the students?" Ummm, I am. They get praise for good behaviour. "But what will you give them?" They're not dogs. They don't need a liver treat when they sit still for thirty seconds. If parents stop raising their children to expect to be rewarded with treats and golden time and certificates just for behaving in the expected manner within a classroom, then we wouldn't have the problem.

I don't particularly want systems like these, I'm a parent.

I don't use systems like these at home either.

Good posting, midnite scribbler.
And piqué a boo - I concur! It's bloody awkward trying to explain when something clearly isn't fair when you bring your child up to treat everyone fairly. I struggle with this often. But as someone else said, such is life, not everyone has the same outlook, and the children are going to have to deal with difficult situations as they grow so I suppose the sooner they get used to it the better! I just hope the morals we try to teach ds stick and he doesn't get too disillusioned with it all.

@MidniteScribbler, I know there are lots of exceptions, I was being weakly ironic (or something) punishing all teachers for the actions of some of them. Parent-first would definitely improve some of them though.

I'm on your side re. the endless certificates, stickers and so on, however that might be contingent on the child. My DD is an easy one who is self-motivated, sets her own challenges and gets 'kicks' out of almost any achievement. ::bliss::

Ridiculous system, where is the incentive for individual good work/ good behaviour. Your DC has no real influence on other childrens behaviour so how can it be fair?

There are some children who do benefit from a behaviour system, but that should be focused on the individual, and not done in a whole class situation. It's very easy to set up a page in the child's workbook where you add a stamp or sticker for good behaviour and then the parent can provide the reward. It's usually only needed with children with additional needs however and should not become the sole source of motivation for that child.

My child doesn't mind the golden cloud business. There is no 'real' reward, just the glory of having been put onto the golden cloud. But she does find it annoying when a child who isn't actually behaving that well (just better than they usually do) gets put onto it. She pointed out that if all it takes is doing the work you've been told to do she would be on it every day (she isn't). And she's not unsympathetic to children with additional needs, having had a child in her class who kicked her in the head quite frequently last year because he can't help it (he really can't help it, he's actually a nice kid with some quite serious difficulties around seeing other people's points of view and anger management difficulties and some problems at home). She could see that he was a special case and actually quite liked him and was very happy to forgive him in a way that she wouldn't have done for someone without additional needs. But she absolutely loathes the marble jar and the whole class method of punishment and I can completely see her point of view.

I don't think children who find it hard to behave at this age (KS1) are really that susceptible to peer pressure. In her class, the marble jar has been introduced this year (Y2) and it is certainly true that a majority of the class has a decent idea of what is expected, is able to carry it out, maybe with a reminder from time to time, and is also able to explain to others what they have been doing that isn't within the bounds of the behaviour policy. But the ones who simply don't know or can't understand what to do aren't the ones who are swayed by peer pressure. They either don't care or can't remember or are not yet at a point where this is a sensible social tool.

It would be much more sensible to have individual rewards for those children, and I think if those were comprehensible and worth something to the children involved maybe there would be less disruption. FWIW, what I've seen in my daughter's class is that children who misbehave miss out on play time. This is nuts to me. Very often, the children who are missing out on running about time are the ones who need it more than anyone else. You could take my kid's running about time away every single day and it wouldn't make much difference to her behaviour (she would probably be hotter if inside the overheated school building for the whole day but I can't imagine there would be any other consequences, maybe more yawning due to being hot), but the ones who are misbehaving are the ones whose behaviour is much improved by being chucked into the playground and allowed to run about for a while. It seems like a vicious circle. Children who need to be allowed to run about behave badly and miss out on physical activity then they behave worse.

Hmm... at first this seemed like a terrible idea, then I realised it's basically house points and it seemed okay, but this particular scheme just doesn't sit right.

Surely the teacher can simply announce at the end of the day/lesson/section of the day which behaviours are good and earning marbles and which aren't? Maybe name the good children but only the bad behaviours not the "bad" children?

I do remember at that age my school had house points and the houses covered all year groups (so imagine a 10 year old looming over you when you messed up!) but no one was really publicly stripped of house points and the reward was simply winning the house cup. It didn't negatively affect us, I don't think.

What I am trying to say is, I see what the school is trying to do but I don't think it is fair, considerate or effective. It is disillusioning all the children, by the sounds of it and I feel quite sorry for both your DS and Sam! I would bring it up, but gently. You don't want to create a rift when your child is only in reception.

buy the teacher a copy of the book "punished by rewards" by alfie kohn

My DD Y5 is having issues with a similar punishment system. There are a few disruptive boys the class and the teacher punishes the whole class for their behaviour. So not only are those who want to learn missing valuable lesson time while these are being dealt with then they also get punished by missing minutes of playtime. The individuals concerned are not bothered in the least by this as the whole class are sharing the burden. Individual punishments are surely more effective where those misbehaving are singled out.

Midnightscribbler....you took the word right out of my mouth with your post about rewards and expectations from parents. In the words of Mr Incredible when his child is 'graduating' from one class to the next he says how ridiculous it is and love his quote about mediocrity!

Snakeweave, thank you for the book recommendation. I've ordered it and think that will be my holiday reading (aren't I exciting lol!).