Bit disappointed that it's down to me to provide 'differentiated work' for DC

[Bitzer]

Interested in people's views on this. I've read a few threads now about parents feeling their children need more stretching etc lots of the responses suggest very helpful ways to do this at home but shouldn't that be something teachers provide regardless of whether parents ask? (if it is clear that a child could be doing more, I mean.)

In our case, DC1 is in year 1. She's a bright child but not exceptional by any means – she's finding the work in class very easy. Now even allowing for the fact that the reality might a bit different to her description, it's pretty clear that a lot of the work she is doing she could have been doing a year ago with little difficulty. E.g. maths - there's a big focus on number bonds to 10 and counting backwards, both of which she is very comfortable with. She keeps asking me for 'more tricky maths' so I asked the teacher what sort of thing I could be doing with her at home and she suggested making sure she knows her number bonds to 20. Now, that's fine but it assumes a certain amount of extra work from the parent. I'm happy to put that extra work in but it immediately gives a step up to children whose parents have the time and/or inclination to do extra work out of school. Thoughts anyone?

PS as an aside her teacher mentioned earlier in the term that DD had been playing up in class a bit. I've had a word with her and she's been much better since but I can't help feeling that if the work were a bit more stimulating that would be less likely to happen.

Well you asked what you could do at home and the teacher told you so I'm confused as to why you are unhappy with that. I believe that my children's education is a partnership between home and school so I do see my role as supporting what they do in school plus continuing, extending and complementing that at home.
Also I would say that 6yr olds rarely play up because they're bored but more because they're 6! Also, a 6yr old's learning is as much about the social aspect as it is about the academics.
If you're still concerned after half term ask to go in and discuss how she's doing unless you havd a parents eve coming up.

worried I'm not unhappy with what the teacher suggested as extra work. I just don't understand why it's not being done as a matter of course within school time. And yes it is something I will raise at parents' evening but I'm interested in whether people think that is reasonable or not - evidently you don't think it is. But to me it seems obvious that if a child is already very confident in a particular area it would be a good idea to give them something slightly more complicated. Teacher even said to me 'yes she's knows her number bonds to 10 really well' so why not just get her doing bonds to 20 in class rather than waiting until I come along and ask about it?

P.S. you might be quite right about the playing up in class – it's possibly unrelated. But she was really well-behaved last year so it's only happened in the past few weeks.

My Yr3 son last year asked what 'negative' meant - so I explained, then explained negative numbers - and he got the idea and is now happy to add and subtract into negative numbers. Its beyond what they were doing at school - but he asked so we dealt with it and everynow and then throw out a sum at him that will take him into the negative or start with a negative number. We don't 'do' extension work with him as such - we just talk about things that come up and explain them and incorporate them into number games.

Good schools (whether state or private) do provide differentiated work but IME it is up to the child to demonstrate what they can do at school (rather than one to one at home) and embrace the opportunities for differentiated learning when they are offered. And I think that is perfectly right.

TBH, if you've read all the other threads like this, you surely know how this will go...some people will say their DC had same experience, others will say their DC's school differentiated, some will suggest you move her to private (making sweeping generalisations about how private schools are always "more academic"), whilst others will say that all state schools are fine for able children (making sweeping generalisations about all state schools). And some will agree that your DC is clearly so clever that she is misbehaving and others will say she is simply misbehaving...

So, on the basis that you asked teacher what you could do at home and she told you, what exactly are you asking here? Of course children with involved parents have a "step up" but that's well understood, isn't it?

Alien yes, I take your point. But, using the number bond example, if DD's teacher already knew that she was confident with them then presumably she had 'demonstrated what she could do' at school (I've never done number bonds with her at home until yesterday after said conversation with teacher). I don't think there were other opportunities for differentiated learning there for her to 'embrace' that was down to me as a parent – and that doesn't feel right to me.

And yes, of course, children with involved parents have a step up I'm just starting to feel (from my own experience and from what I've read on other schools) that schools could do a lot more to ensure that opportunities offered to children are a bit more 'equal'. Meh, maybe you're right, maybe I'm just generalising, and maybe a pointless thread. It just frustrates me.

mistlethrush thanks for the input

Good schools do provide differentiated work, but in practice (as demonstrated by innumerable threads on here) the vast majority don't. Or they provide extra work - more of the same. Or they differentiate a bit but not at the child's actual level. And even within a single school some teachers are much better than others. So yes, the school could be doing a lot more. Whether it's possible to persuade them to is another matter altogether.

But the rest of AlienAttack's post is spot on. Schools (and posters, and their children) are so different, that it's impossible to generalise. But if you think your child is bored and capable of more, you need to say that to school and put the ball back in their court.

FWIW, I have direct experience of bored six year olds playing up (in our case at home). As soon as the extension work started, the bad behaviour disappeared.

iamotter thanks. I think DD's is a good school. And last year there was much more differentiated, the year 1 teacher just seems to have a different approach. I will, as you say, put the ball back in their court when the appropriate moment comes along.

I felt in a similar position to you OP -DS (6) is very strong at maths and was being given very basic numeracy work at school last year (this was Y1) both in school and for homework. Definitely things he could have done easily in reception. In fact I feel he wasn't stretched in R or Y1 to his potential. We were doing things at home with him but I got a bit fed up with 'revising number bonds to 10' or 'counting in 2's 5's and 10's' which was usually his homework! (despite him being in the top ability set)

This year (Y2), I feel that things are more differentiated for the most able in the class with maths. DS has told me that 3 of them in the class have been given extra work to do such as -the whole class doing about right angles and DS was then given work to do on obtuse and acute angles. Extension work on lines of symmetry etc. DS seems happier, more enthusiastic and excited to tell me what they have been doing in class compared to last year.

Parents evening next week so will be interesting to hear what the teachers have to say!

alluc thanks - interesting to hear your experience. I've heard things really step in year 2 maths-wise. I think I'd feel happier if the school started to work on some of those topics in year 1, where appropriate, so that it doesn't all come at once next year.

Anyway, my point wasn't really just about DD, she's an example. I guess what I'm asking is, if a child is able to do something more, shouldn't the goal, even in class-time, be that he/she is provided with opportunities to do so at least some of the time?

This would concern me too tbh. It's all very well you extending at home but what does your child do in the classroom when they have finished their work and nobody else has?

My DD is also in yr1 and very strong in literacy and she does get extension work to do (whole top table does) for when they have finished their class work.

She also has extra literacy lessons with the KS1 Head to push her.

I would make an appt with the class teacher to discuss it.

Hi Bitzer:

I could write a novel but the abridged version is

YES, teachers should be differentiating for ability and intervening early for struggling children (OFSTED agree) but for whatever reason, teachers often don't.

I approached school because DD1 was absolutely floundering in maths (i.e. couldn't add numbers above 20 and couldn't take 1 from 10 at March of Y2) and simply asked if they could recommend anything to help. I wasn't blaming anybody - just felt we needed to do more. The school's response was:

"We don't recommend workbooks"

"Mrs PSBD - we sometimes find with highly educated parents like yourself, they have overly ambitious expectations for their children. There is no easy way to say this, but we really think you just have to accept your DD1 is dim".

DD1 earned a NC L1 at KS1 SATs in maths. In March 2010 we gave up on the school - joined mathsfactor (presented by the marvelous Carol Vorderman) and have never looked back.

Roll forward to today: DD1 has completed arithmetic school on mathsfactor faithfully putting in an hour a week between late Y2 - end Summer before Y6. She is in Y6 and the school is very keen to sit her for a L6 SATs in Maths (because the Added Value score for her will be phenomenal and raise the schools CVA).

My view: If I hadn't interfered. If I hadn't thought 'this is bologna' any child should be able to add and subtract. If I hadn't had the will and the financial means to pay for on-line tuition in maths (£14.99 a month) and made the time to support it at home - my DD1 would be doing what her peers are right now (1/2 of the Y6 class has not mastered their times tables, can't divide, can't cope with fractions and don't get percentages or adding/ subtracting time - i.e. it's 3:30 what time was it 40 minutes ago?).

I fear teachers are only willing to do what they are willing to do.

Asking for more just makes you a PITA and puts you in difficulties with them or Senior Management.

I don't understand why our school physically spends more time on prayer and learning hymns than maths, but I do completely get that this coupled with little or no homework in maths most likely is directly linked to poor pupil performance (2012 only 58% of pupils achieved NC L 4 or higher in Maths at KS2 SATs).

Of course the school cite research which establishes that homework in primary is of no benefit and one on one tuition is of no benefit (etc...) - e.g. www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6319948.

Unfortunately we've found this research doesn't hold in our specific case.

This leads me to wonder about a recent Guardian article about the fact that educational performance is determined in primary, especially for poorer children: www.theguardian.com/education/2013/oct/08/poor-children-chances-primary-school-report - is it because educated, middle class parents have the wherewithal and confidence to realise that their children aren't making appropriate progress and to intervene (either through DIY home tutoring/ purchasing access to things on-line/ workbooks or hiring tutors)?

I fear the reality in our area is the middle class parents (myself included) are doing a huge amount to help their children with schooling (way more than was done for us when we were children) - and this is a quiet plight for parents. It comes out toward the end of your time at primary that X has had a tutor, Y has had workbooks from India and Z has been doing on-line tutorials through Sunday Times Magazine. And Mrs PSBD went part-time and spent hours and hours helping her DD1 with reading and maths. The 11+ in our area also is thrown into the mix and gets many parents pulling out all the stops to help their DCs through this process.

So back to your question Bitzer - yes schools can and should do more but it entirely depends on the professionalism of individual teachers and what their priority is.

Sorry for the rant....

I think I should have probably added a disclaimer to my advice saying that I removed my older two very academic children from a very academic, very high performing state school and sent them to non-selective independent school. I felt that as soon as school saw how far ahead they were, especially DD1 who is academically gifted, they were only interested in pushing them as far as they could. I felt at primary level, especially infants, their education should be about so much more such as leaf collecting on autumn days. I think the NC constrains good teachers and sats put too much pressure on schools to unnecessarily push children.

Sorry, DS1, I have pregnancy brain.

Thanks for the responses, folks. It is genuinely appreciated.

simpson yes, that's what I was wondering. They don't have a 'top table' as such except during reading sessions. Will see how things are after half term and consider making an appointment then.

PSBD - thanks v much for sharing your experiences. Well done for giving your DD so much confidence in maths even if it did cost a lot in terms of time and energy (not to mention cash!). Good tip about mathsfactor though - may look into that further along the line.

I couldn't see the bit about one-on-one tuition in the TES piece you linked to but I'm surprised by the claim that it isn't benefit at primary level, I've seen it have a huge impact (we've never tried it ourselves, the DC are still very young, but I wouldn't rule it out later if one of them were struggling in a particular area)

worried I see your point and of course there should be plenty of the leaf collecting type stuff at this age - and there still is in our case. A lot of the school day is still play-based for DD1 in year 1. I'm not suggesting for a moment that each child should be stretched for every minute of the school day but now and again it's surely good for them to be doing things that are difficult rather than going over familiar territory again and again. Totally agree about SATs though - I worry that a huge amount of lost prepping children for exams when it could be spent doing something far more educationally enriching.

if a child is able to do something more, shouldn't the goal, even in class-time, be that he/she is provided with opportunities to do so at least some of the time?

Some bright kids make those opportunities out of what they're given.

Yes, agree with lijkk. The "goal in class time" as OP puts it is, of course, to provide opportunities for able DC to extend themselves. And, trust me, many schools manage to do this for many extremely able children. I and my DD are clearly very fortunate that her school is one of those able to do this.

So OP, unfortunately it seems your DD is not at a school which is currently doing this. So, how about taking your specific concerns to the teacher and discussing how best to support your DD? You mentioned that your school doesn't have a "top table" but I'd be staggered if it was best practice to have a single top table. My DD's school mixes children up, usually by ability, for numeracy, literacy etc etc depending on the activities they do. So different tables much of the time, rather than a single "top table!

If it were me, I would discuss my concerns with teacher and, only if I really felt that I hadn't been heard, would I complain to HT etc and consider moving. But then I know from reading on here that I am in a minority of parents (on MN at least) who do trust the teachers to do their jobs unless it becomes obvious they are not...

You should definitely bring it up with the teacher, anything that concerns you is always better being discussed. She may have reasons for not providing differentiated learning to your daughter in the classroom. Is she not focused at school and not working as well as she does one on one at home? Is she not letting the teacher know when she has completed her work? They're all questions that need answering.

But can I just clear up a little point about differentiation? Differentiation is NOT pushing students to learn work that is yet to be taught to the rest of the class. There is no point when the class is learning fractions that one child suddenly starts learning about angles. Because when we then move the class on to angles, those students are then going to need to be pushed on to something else. Differentiation means setting work within the current lesson themes which is appropriate for the child at that time. So for higher achieving students, they will generally be asked to work on tasks that involve practical application of the skills they have learnt within that current topic to determine if they can apply their conceptual learning to practical applications. So for example, if we're working on fractions and a student is quite advanced and finished their work, I may actually give them the recipe for our afternoon cooking class and ask them to work out how much of each ingredient we will need when we need to make the recipe that serves four large enough for our whole class, thus asking them to apply their learning and problem solve. I won't give them worksheets, they really aren't that much use to students who have mastered the work already, it's just busy work.

Also, teaching has moved on a lot these days. Rote learning and being talked at by the teacher has had its day (thank goodness) and exploratory learning, hands on experiences and play based learning is now the way to go as well as cross-curriculum lessons. Leaf collecting can be a literacy, maths, science and art lesson all rolled in to one. Children learn in an authentic social context, so providing them with hands on activities in a social environment where they learn from each other is proven to be far more beneficial to young children.

I had absolutely the same experience as PastSellByDate.

DS was falling behind being simultaneously highly frustrated. I was trying to talk to the teacher, who told me he was "completely average and where he should be (and about my overly high expectation of my dim child)". Then the teacher proceeded to bully him (thankfully, she just returned from maternity leave and it was July, so it all ended very quickly). I just made myself into 'that' uncomfortable pushy and crazy mother.

As I am foreign, I so much couldn't understand what was going on that I took DS for dyslexia test; where the woman doing the testing rolled her eyes out and said that DS is in (something like) 97% percentile (I don't exactly remember but it was something like having extra superior intelligence). And when I asked but why then he can't spell, write and calculate after 2 years at school - she said that he might not have been taught properly. And gave me a few references to teaching material (which were my most expensive references as the test costed a fortune!).

Moral: never speak to school as there is no point in this, it will just anger teachers.

I've bought lots of books and materials and now teach DS myself and regard school as an addition. If they teach him something, great. If not, I do it myself.

Funnily, following through a spelling program I was recommended, DS is the best speller in class (Y4) - while having English as a second language.

It's not great having to have a full overview of the primary school curriculum and basically having a second job as a primary school teacher for your DC (while working full-time in another career).

Also apologies for long rant: long suffered from this inadequacy - and need to vent

PastSellByDate: "about the fact that educational performance is determined in primary"

Fact? For a few years now everyone+dog in education opinion world has been blaming pre-school environment for fixing educational trajectories, hence Sure Start under labour and the DfE's comment bank response ("That is why..") to the StC report about their nursery provision.

Meanwhile, recently in behavioural genetics land:

If our hypotheses are correct, teaching basic literacy and numeracy skills in the early school years largely erases environmental disparities, leaving genetics as the primary cause of individual differences in these skills between children

Eeek: Can I just add that I'm absolutely not related to that [bleep] working for Mr Gove, one Dominic Cummings who has just turned up in a Guardian article titled: ^Genetics outweighs teaching, Gove adviser tells his boss".

[He probably read the same research though, although looking at credible evidence would be a first for that bunch]

I think too much is expected of schools; they can't correct the inherent unfairness of the rest of our society.