Have just come back from primary admission appeal

[Kally38]

As the subject says, I have just come back from my daughters admission appeal and feel numb!

The LA presented information to the panel about the square footage of the classroom that we are currently appealing for. This was in response to the panel asking about the size of the classroom. We heard that the classroom is 52 square footage but only 37 footage is teaching space. This was then used as a basis for their argument. We did not have any of this information in the appeal paperwork and when I raised this with the panel, I was told by the LA and panel that this was not new information as it was in response to a question by the panel.

Another argument centred on the LA informing the panel that due to the level of SEN in the class (2 on School Action and 1 on School Action Plus) and 2 other pupils with medical needs, that the teacher could not cope with an additional child. There is currently 1 teacher and two Learning Support Assistants in the class of 22 children.

We were not allowed to ask any questions about how the school have been using their resources presently with classes that have gone over PAN as the panel said it was about the here and now and other children and that numbers over PAN were a precedent.

I was positive before I went into the appeal but have come out feeling despondent! I felt the panel focused on the LA case regarding the impact of the SEN children in the class but did not allow us to question the LA on this e.g. the fact that the school has a delegated SEN budget to support the needs of these children, what the school is providing is what they should be providing etc.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Where does dd go to school now?
Why do you want to move?

Tbh I wouldn't want to force the schools hand as then you'll be up against them from the start

I suppose they are looking at the appeal from the point of view of impact on the children already in the class. If there are already special needs children and only 2 additional members of staff (which is probably perfectly sufficient in the circumstances) the addition of another child tipping numbers over the limit may well be seen as too much.

I don't know your background, can you expand on why you were appealing for a place?

I have no advice but I am going to appeal in a couple of weeks and wonder what questions did you ask?
Hoe did you prepare?

I hope you get a successful result!

Can I ask on what grounds you were appealing?

What year group is your DC in? Infant Class Size appeals in particular are very hard to win (in most areas less than 2 % are successful). Ordinary prejudice appeals have a greater sucess rate but you must still prove that the prejudice to your child as a result of not having a place is greater than the strain on resources etc that admitting an extra child to the school would create...

Unless this is an infant class size appeal going over PAN in previous years does set a precedent, particularly if they have been over PAN in Reception previously. Without knowing the questions you wanted to ask I can't be absolutely certain but my initial reaction is that it sounds like you may have been prevented from asking valid questions. If that is the case and the panel decide against you, you will have good grounds to go to the LGO and ask them to order a fresh appeal with a different panel.

Thank you for all your replies. I have posted before regarding my admission appeal on different threads and have had great advice from people including Prh47bridge and Admission.

To recap it was not an infant class sized appeal and PAN was 21 for each year. There are currently 22 in the year group that we are appealing for so 1 over PAN. During part 1 the LA representative presented their case and the panel asked some questions. When it came to our turn to question the LA on part 1, we questioned how they have managed their resources in the past considering they have gone over PAN in other year groups. They are currently 25 in Year 1 and they have also gone over PAN in some of the junior aged classes. The chair of the Panel then interjected and said that because they had gone over numbers in other year groups this did not cause a precedent and consequently our line of questioning was closed down. The LA responded by saying that they did not choose to go over numbers and that was that!

We also felt that we were closed down on questi

Posted too quickly by mistake! We also felt that we were not given opportunities to ask valid questions about the LA's driving argument that the impact an additional child would have on the 3 children with SEN. Both me and my husband work in a profession where we support schools with the needs and provision of SEN children. When we tried to ask questions about what the school should be DOING as part of their school support for SEN, we were again closed down. We felt this unfair as we were unable to show in our optini

Posted early again! We felt that we were unable to show in our opioni

I'm losing the plot now so may just give! We felt unable to show the panel that the prejudice the LA was arguing was not the case as this would be an expectation of all school. The LA also used the fact that there were places available at the next nearest as a reason why it was prejudicial not only to the appeal school but to other schools around the area!

I would be concerned that you did not get a fair hearing but then we are only hearing your side of what went on and I am sure that the appeal panel, through the clerk will have a different view point.
My first question is around the classroom size. If it is 52 square metres measured then this is what it is. The idea that there is only 37 square metres of teaching space is just not viable with the regs. The regs state you measure the classroom and that is the teaching space. Unless the 37 was the actual size and the 15 square metres difference is cupboard space (which should not have been measured) then the panel has been given bad information and should have been querying this. I certainly chairing such panels would have been questioning the logic of what was being said.
I would tend to agree with them that this was info bought up at the appeal. However I would also be questioning why if the PAN is 22 (my assumption) the "small" classrooms did not figure in the school's case.
52 sq metres, whilst now not he standard classroom size, is typical of many older classrooms expected to cope with 30 pupils. Interestingly 37/52 X 30 comes to 21.3, so is this where the 22 max class size is coming from?
The SEN level on average nationally is 20%, this class has 3 out of 22, which I make to be 13.6%. So no valid arguement. There may be a valid argument over the two medical pupils if they were for instance having mobility issues which then may mean 2 wheelchairs or frames in the classroom.
The teacher not coping with 22 in the class, sorry no sympathy here what so ever, the vast majority of teachers have 30 or 30+ in their class, frequently with higher levels of special needs than in this class.
Not being allowed to ask questions is a serious issue, you should have been allowed to ask any question as long as it was relevant and clearly how other classes were coping with more than 22 pupils in the class is relevant. Maybe asking about actual resources in terms of £, I would have had concerns about, but asking whether extra staff were deployed in classes with more pupils is perfectly valid as is asking whether the school have sufficient resources to finance another LSA - though we all know what the answer would be.

Can I just double check the size of the classroom, please as I think I must be being stupid.
Did they really tell you that the classroom was 52 square feet?

The little single bedroom in my house is more than 52 square feet (at 6ft by 10ft it is actually 60 square feet), definitely no space for a whole class of children.

Or do schools use a different sort of square footage in appeals?

Sorry to go off topic though.

I agree with everything Admission has said. Based on the information you have posted I would definitely take this to the LGO. You seem to have been prevented from asking valid questions which is unacceptable.

That was probably 52 square meters. 49m2 is a national standard to accommodate at least 30 pupils.

I have taught a class of 28, with 2 statemented children (one with significant medical needs, also high personal care needs), 6 on SA+ (one with medical needs that require regular administration of medication in school) and a further 4 on SA - with 1 FT teaching assistant (1 to 1 with one of the statemented children) and a part time class TA. The idea that a class teacher cannot cope with a class of 22, with 2 LSA and only 3 on the SEN list is LUDICROUS.

My last year's class had 31, with one child with severe behavioural issues, (statement in process, so limited support) and five on SA+ and a further four on SA.
Sorry, but can't raise much sympathy for a teacher of 22 with two TAs, with only one SA+ and two SAs. Sounds like my idea of heaven!!

I didn't realise it was only 22 pupils. That scuppers the staffing issue problem then even if the SENs were severe.

I would love to know what so much of the classroom is then if it isn't teaching space.

Thank you for all your replies. It's good to know that it is not unreasonable for a teacher to have a class of 22 with 3 SEN children and 3 adults!

The 37 square footage 'teaching space' I was told was due to the rest of the additional space been used as a 'thoroughfare'. Apparently it is like an open corridor!
Admission-the maximum net capacity is 150 and the net calculated capacity is 147. Interesting they reduced the PAN from 22 to 21 in 2010. In hindsight we should have questioned why this decision was made! The panel did not question this either.

hmm if part of the classroom is a walkthrough area on the way to toilets/other classroom/exit door then I suppose that is a problem as technically it probably is classed as emergency exit route and therefore can't be used for anything.

My guess would be that the school used to be an open access school, where there were large open spaces used by more than class. That "experiment" has been and gone and many schools have tried to make enclosed classrooms. I wonder whether they have put in a stud wall to make it into two classrooms but the entrance to the second classroom is through the first one, which is hardly ideal.