School's discipline rules for 11 year old's.

[trickydickie]

My dd comes out of school in hysterics and tells me I have to go in and speak her a teacher. She is hysterical. (I've never seen her in this state before).

A teacher introduces herself to me (Miss Smith) and tells me "the girls in the class today asked a student teacher how she felt about Tom fancying her". "I was in the class the whole time and witnessed exactly what happened". I took the girls to the depute head who has spoken to them in the stongest terms possible that this type of talk is totally unacceptable". "I just want to make sure that the line we are taking with the in school is the same line being taken at home."

I am now under the impression that all the girls or majority in the class are involved in this and taken to the depute head.

I agreed with Miss Smith that this type of thing is not acceptable and I said it is utterly disrespectful and yes I will be speaking to DD about this.

We get straight out the door and DD says Tom told her how upset he was that this student teacher knew he fancied her and how he was going to be taken to depute head and how worried he was. The girls were then in a class getting changed for PE and another girl told the student teacher that Tom fancied her. The other girls were all sniggering/laughing and my daughter asked the student teacher not to tell on Tom. Then this qualified teacher (who witnessed whole thing) took my daughter and other girl to the depute head.

Granted I may not be getting whole story off my DD. My DD and the other girl have lost all priveleges, things like watching the infants during wet plays, welcoming visitors to the school, helping out with stuff around the school, which obviously my DD loves. DD thinks she has lost all privileges for the whole of p7 (yr 6).

I am miffed that I was called in to see Miss Smith and was not told that it was only two girls she witnessed involved. Was not told my daughters exact part in it, was not told the depute head was actually screaming at my daughter and the other girl. Also was not told that there was a further punishment and for how long it would be.

If the school hadn't involved me in it and just punished daughter then I would have to accept it (though not a year long punishment) but I am annoyed that I have been involved in it yet not told the whole story.

So, I have asked for Miss Smith to phone me to explain this punishment and also her version of my daughter's actual part in the incident. School have always told me DD behaviour is excellent.

Do I have a right to be annoyed or am I being pfb. She is my oldest but one of four! Thanks for reading!

I left a message with school office asking Miss Smith to phone me and said it is regarding the incident that DD was involved in last week.

Do you think I should just accept DD fate or ask for further explanations for school? Thank you

I think DD has to learn to take the rough with the smooth. For every incident she gets reprimanded for that wasn't her fault, there will be another one that she gets away with scot free.

Yes, it sounds as if DD did why the qualified teacher said happened.

Yes, this sort of behaviour needs to be sanctioned.

I'd leave it be.

Who's Tom?
I haven't got a clue what's going on here...

Whatever the exact story school need to provide a time limit on sanctions.

DD2 took her Y6 buddying etc. duties very seriously, she would have been massively upset to have them removed.

I think if you dd was trying to stick up for Tom (who I assume is a boy in her class), she is likely to feel misunderstood and hence upset.

She still got involved, which is obviously a mistake, but her motives were different to teasing etc.

I would let her know I understood, even if school didn't, and that although she meant well perhaps next time, in a similar situation, it would be best to let people work it out for themselves.

If she is still upset, then I would talk to her class teacher (is that Miss Smith??) and let her know dd is upset because her intentions were honourable, if misjudged, and that a chat might help ongoing good relations

We all look at our children with rosy spectacles. It is hard for a mother to accept that her little girl behaved badly. Children often lie about their role in a particular incident because they are ashamed of themselves. If a teacher has witnessed bullying then its likely that your daugther is guilty. Children often cry when being told off and this doesn't mean that the school has done anything wrong.

A year long punishment does seem harsh and gives no moviation to improve behaviour. However it is right that the school has stamped down on bullying and maybe its fair to say that bullies cannot be playground buddies for a few weeks.

Some children never get privilages in a large school inspite of being well behaved. It is not practical to have every child show people around the school or be a playground buddy. I suppose a lot depends on the size of school and whether everyone else gets these privilages.

ReallyTired- it wasn't bullying, it was a student teacher my daughter was talking to. Not another child.

Also, the whole class get to put their hands up if they want to do the privilege. The teacher then picks which children get to do it.

I have given her the talk about life is shite sometimes and sometimes we get blamed for things we didn't do. She just has to suck it up. (Also, the whole time aware that she may not be telling the truth). Have also given her the lecture, for the 20th time, about not getting involved in arguments/situations that are nothing to do with her.

I now just want an answer from the school as to how long she will be punished for.

Teachers can be bullied. It's commoner in secondary. But not unheard of in primary.

Persistent unwanted comments of a sexual nature are definitely harassment and should fall under the bullying policy. Now, how explicitly sexual those comments were isn't clear, but persistent chat about "fancying" teachers needs to be stamped out. And that includes asking the recipient of the unwanted comments to refrain from taking it further.

"ReallyTired- it wasn't bullying, it was a student teacher my daughter was talking to. Not another child. "

It sounds like "Tom" was being bullied even if he wasn't there.

Anyway, there is no way that a child should behave like that to a student teacher or any other adult in the school. The school has quite rightly stamped down and decide that your daughter needs to learn to respect staff. If she wants to be a playground buddy then the school needs to be sure that she will set a good example younger children.

It is an honour rather than a right to be a playground buddy. Some well behaved children are never given the chance. She has been stripped of her responsiblity as a punishment. To suggest that she has a year long punishment is suggesting that the low ablity SEN children who can't cope with that responsiblity are also being punished.

Children are rarely 100% good or 100% bad. If a child with a good behaviour record misbehaves and distrupts the class then they will be sanctioned. Year 6 is difficult as children are starting to get teenage hormones and prevoiusly "nice" children do start to test the boundaries. The school clearly understands that it is essential nip poor behaviour in the bud otherwise no learning will take place.

I suggest you are a little bit less pfb and deal with your daughter's poor behaviour.

Really don't understand how "Tom" is being bullied in this scenario. He is the one going about saying he fancies this teacher. Then regretted it once he realised he was getting into trouble for it. My daughter asked the teacher not to tell on him. She now realises this was the wrong thing to do. That a student teacher is not her friend and most certainly not her equivalent. (Especially going by some of the comments on here).

I still think this is a bit of a grey area. Kids start at a really young age to say this one fancies that one etc. Age 10/11 you don't realise you've crossed boundaries with the "fancies this one, that one" until it is pointed out to you by an adult.

That was most clearly pointed out to my daughter and her friend/class colleague. They now know to keep a lid on the fancy this one that one thing. As do the rest of the class. The school have most certainly stamped down hard on it and so be it. Yes it is wrong to talk to a teacher or suggest to a teacher that a pupil fancies him/her. I have had that talk with DD and explained why it is so wrong. So if she was involved in that she knows I think she was totally wrong.

Though I remember at age 13 finding something attractive about my maths teacher as did my whole class (all girls). Obviously by then we were aware that you didn't express these thoughts to the teacher!

I do believe that this depute head screamed at the two girls because I have heard other parents report the same thing.

For me to tell her she did wrong is for me to tell her that she should never stand up for the under dog, or the lost cause etc. I have actually told her that in future to keep her mouth shut and never defend anyone else. Only to look after herself and let this be a lesson to her. This catholic school education is doing her the world of good. Really standing testament to what they teach her in RE.

It is funny because I have spoken to four people in RL who have said the school have went over board and I should speak to the school. I suppose these stories are easier told verbally than written down or maybe all my friends are scared of telling me the truth.

med- she turned 11 in June. There is no way she realises there is anything sexual in a boy in her class fancying a teacher.

I have lost count of the amount of times friends/aquaintances have told me their son is in love with his teacher. There is nothing sexual in it at primary school age.

My daughter has to be taught that it can be misconstrued to be a sexual thing. She would have no idea it could be. I understand it is all part of growing up and lessons to be learned but to suggest that this teacher was being bullied/harassed in a sexual manner by an 11 year old girl is taking it to extremes.

She would know to be violent to someone, bully someone, swear at them, steal etc are wrong and she should be punished. Would she or any other 10/11 year old know it is wrong to ask someone not to tell on their friend, even if that someone is an adult?

There is nothing sexual in it at primary school age.

Then you are quite ignorant of just how much student's do know at this age. Whilst their parents like to think that they're children are still playing with matchbox cars and barbie dolls, what children really do understand can be a real shock to some parents. And even if they don't completely understand, they are repeating what they see and hear in popular culture, and need to learn that it is not acceptable.

The school has to take a hard line on this sort of thing. All it takes is for a silly comment, then the mothers circle at the gate are saying that Mrs X touched a student, which then becomes sexual assault and a teacher's reputation and life is ruined. It IS that serious.

trickydickie
I think you have to accept that your daughter is growing up and testing boundaries. Your baby is starting to become a woman and the hormones of pubety are starting to flow through her blood whether she likes it or not. Year 6 children are becoming sexually aware and often the children find it shock as much as the adults.

I doult your daughter was bullying the teacher in a "sexual manner" as she is only ten, but she was totally and utterly distrupting the lesson. Year 6 is an important year and the school does not want silly talk of some boy fancying the teacher to take up the lesson. A ten year old knows damn well that going on that some boy fancies a teacher is wrecking the lesson. The poor student teacher may have been trying to teach the class maths or geography and had to deal with immature brats making silly comments.

If you are still unhappy then I suggest you make an appointment with the teacher. However if you picked a school with high academic standards and a good discipline policy then you need to accept that your daughter will be punished if she crosses the line.

Whatever the level of understanding of the sexual componet of fancying, the behaviour in itself needs to be clamped down. Repeated comments of this nature constitute harassment. Trying to get a teacher to circumvent the normal disciplinary actions is wrong (and does rather suggest that the participants knew more of what they were up to than they wish to admit).

Now, it's not nice to realise one of your DC has made a huge mistake. But this is how children learn.

trickydickie:

I take the point that your DD may not have completely comprehended what 'fancies you' meant or implied but I think it's the disruptive incident that is really the issue (regardless of content).

Not sure if you've already talked to the teacher but I think you need to get at whether your daughter was one of the people to tell the entire class (and teacher) that Tom had a crush on her.

1. it's breaking a confidence
2. it's disruptive (I rather expect the class erupted at this news)
3. it probably took a lot of time to calm everyone down.

In fact - I suspect it's #3 that is the problem.

This is Y6 and the class needs to be getting on with a lot of work. Now if everyone in the class is already a secure NC Level 4 in english/ maths then perhaps this is less serious - but if this is like most schools around here then it's likely there is a good portion of the class struggling and they only have a few short months to get on with teaching them the necessary curriculum content for them to do reasonably well on KS2 SATs - and I'm afraid from the point of view of most schools that is effectively what Y6 boils down to - getting as many as possible to NC Level 4 or better.

The school is being tough about this incident because quite simply they can't afford for this to be happening all the time

HTH

Thanks for the comments everyone. It has helped put it in some perspective for me before speaking to the school again.

Only the girls were in a classroom getting changed for PE. The student teacher wasn't teaching and no lesson was being taught at that time. Past - hadn't really considered point 2 and 3 of yours.

Oh I have explained to my daughter that this sort of behaviour can lead to a teacher being accused of having a relationship with a pupil and how serious that is. Which is the reason she would have been taken to the depute head.

Thanks, I will wait on the school getting back to me.

Hi trickydickie:

Interesting it was an incident in a fairly informal situation - that rather suggests that things got out of control and the teacher may have had some difficulty calming your DD down.

As I said, I don't know if she was an instigator in this incident (i.e. she said/ shouted 'Do you know Tom fancies you Miss' or similar/ chanted Tom fancies you/ etc...) or if she just joined in - however I suspect the teacher is probably justified in identifying your DD as part of the problem - given it was just a small group of students.

So I think the issue isn't what was said (although I agree it could put the trainee teacher in a difficult situation) - I suspect the issue is behavior - and the school not wanting out of control/ difficult to calm down behavior just now.

Y6 is tricky and there can be a lot of 'showing off'/ behavior issues with children who are rapidly outgrowing primary school rules/ values. (Hello Hormones!)

I'm sure it is just a case of your DD got excited and carried away with the situation - and didn't mean anything by it - but the school are right to clamp down on this because they will need Year 6 calm and concentrating if they're to get them all to do well at KS2 SATs (and I fear that is entirely what Y6 is about these days). It also places the trainee teacher in a very difficult situation as it is now on record she lost control of only part of the class - which could well affect her references/ job prospects.

Ye olde - how would you feel if you were in her shoes may apply in this case. If you haven't had that conversation with your DD maybe you should - I rather suspect if she thought through what happened and then imagine being the poor teacher (just learning to do the job and loses control of a small group) it might stop her feeling quite so hard done by. I'm sure it was all just a bit of fun - but I fear there are times and places for high-jinx.

HTH

Tom is the victim in this situation. Not a gang of giggling girls.

Next time it might be Tom or his mates telling a male teacher that your dd fancies them.

Or the school dealing with it this time might just mean it won't happen again.

Yep JustBecauseICan:

I agree. No idea who 'Tom' may be - but suspect he's absolutely mortified poor lad.

As I said trickiedickie I don't know whether your daughter started this (meaning to belittle/ tease Tom) or just got carried away and joined in - but it does sound like things got out of control for them to be sent to the Deputy Head and get shouted out - this just doesn't sound like a comment which was swiftly swatted down and ignored.

I get that you want to take your DD's side in this and I get that your DD may not have appreciated the implications of what she was saying/ her behavior - but the school aren't wrong to be treating this seriously

They need order
They don't need innuendo about staff/ students
They don't need further incidents

I can see the school have no choice but to come down hard this time for all those reasons.

An apology to 'Tom' and the trainee teacher might not go amiss either.

Thanks again. Well I feel totally relieved as after speaking to the school today it turns out my daughter actually told me the truth. Hooray. So I wasn't actually told the truth when I was taken into the school that day.

I haven't stated that the school were wrong to deal with this behaviour seriously.

The school are wrong to not tell me the truth when they took me in to speak to me. To speak to me about it in a corridor full of children and teachers. They are also wrong to decide to give my child a punishment with no time scale to it.

i think the teacher clamped down hard on it because it is a question of respect. If comments like this are allowed to pass then it opens up the wrong kind of atmosphere and can lead to other problems. How can the student teacher keep order if she is undermined by this kind of joky over familiar comments. If your dd would not have made the comment to her regular teaher then she was playing up. She was caught out and that is why she is upset, coupled with fact that she is normally never in trouble this would explain her hysteria. The best way to deal with it is to support the school, tell your dd she was wrong but accept it was a one off. Maybe get her to apologise privately and it will all be forgotten. I think it is highly unlikely she will get a year long punishment!