Question for primary school teachers ..

[Carolmillen]

At DS's school, if the children are in the top groups for spellings, maths etc, they get more work than if they are in the lower groups. Why is that as I would have thought that children in the lower groups should get the same or more work?

I'm all for stretching children - but I think they should be stretched whatever level they are working at. Is DS's school the norm?

I give all children the same AMOUNT of homework but the homework is differentiated.
Children who struggle tend to have interventions put in place during the school day, especially daily reading, visual and auditory memory games, fine and gross motor skill activities and maybe extra Literacy and Numeracy tuition. Sometimes they may take home extra spellings but as a rule, all children have the same homework, no matter what their leve of attainment.

That's interesting - I know that they do give different amounts of homework out as I look after a couple of the other children and do their homework with them one night a week. It doesn't make sense to me!

I think the aim is that homework should take roughly the same time for each child.

If I gave 'write 5 sentences' to a Y3 class, some would complete it in about a minute, others would take half an hour. So instead I might say to the quicker ones (who are probably the more able ones) 'write 10 sentences including a connective and an adjective', while the slower ones (who are probably the not so able) have 'write 3 sentences, but start each one with a different word'.

Each activity is stretching the children, but at their level, and will take each child about the same length of time.

Doesn't the gap potentially just get wider though Galena?

But it won't get narrower by providing the less able with hours and hours of homework that they can't access, and you can't hold back the more able to lessen the gap either. You simply need to provide each child with their own challenge at their level at home, and try to boost their learning at school however you can.

It's not so much about 'gaps' I would argue, Carol. It's about each child making progress. In order for a child to progress, they have to learn the next step on - whatever that is.

It is nothing to do with 'amount' of work and everything to do with the level of work, which should be challenging, but achievable.

So, I suppose I'm saying that no, a child in a more able group shouldn't be given 'more' homework, but should be given differently pitched homework. Does that make sense?

Yes - what Galena said. x-post

agree with Galena, you are given 20 minutes of homework, so top set gets more work enough to last them 20 minutes

given the children in lower set the same amount would mean they spent hours doing the homework, which isn't particularly effective

The children get differently pitched homework but the less able get less homework too. So as an example, one more able child will get 20 questions and the less able child gets 10 questions.

I don't agree with holding back any child - quite the reverse. But if I were the parent of a less able child, I'd want them to be given the same volume of homework so I could work through that with them at home.

But you're assuming that random parent of a less able child has the time and ability to do the same volume of homework, given that it may well take twice as long. And you also have to factor in the effect it will have on the child - presumably there's a risk they will feel overwhelmed and so disengage.

Well as a parent of a less able child, I can tell you that homework is enough of a battle without having double what another child has. As others have said it is about how long it will take the child rather than volume of work.

Yes, I am making an assumption based on my own experience. DS was having some struggles a while back and one aspect of the work was taking twice as long but I don't think the answer was to halve his homework.

that depends what you mean by volume.

From the teacher's perspective, they are doing exactly that, giving 20 minutes homework, which is the 'same' amount

I do understand what you are saying, but for example in my ds class (Y6) he is doing something like this:

write the opening chapter to a story, concentrating on setting the scheme, introducing the characters, remember use of adjectives, interesting sentence openers etc etc

They would write an A4 side of paper, a piece of complex writing. It would take ds about 20-30 minutes once he had stopped prevaricating and actually sat down and did it

the middle group might have same task, but only be expected to produce one/two paragraphs, or be given the same task in a much more structured format, like answering questions.

the bottom group in his class could not do that task, no matter how long they spent working on it. In fact I happen to know that there is one child in his class who is working at a Y1 level on reading and writing.
The tasks cannot be the same because not all the children are able to do the same tasks.

Simlarly in maths, you cannot ask a child to do complex multiplication/division questions when conceptually they are not yet able to do long multiplication.

scene not scheme !

Do you generally expect children to do their homework without any adult supervision or intervention? DS is younger so he is always supervised when doing his homework - and supported where necessary.

Well I think that's the exception rather than the rule.
What everyone else is saying, is right IME (both as a teacher and as a parents of 3 children with different attitudes to homework).
You aim to give homework that will challenge each of the children, not completely deflate them. In an ideal world, it should be about the same amount of time, for each of the children.

i have 3 dcs aged 10, 8 and 5.

5 yo is supervised, I would help if needed (and make note to teacher0

8 yo is happy to go off and do it herself, (in fact I am not allowed to help as obviously I know absolutely nothing at all) She will ask if needs help (but my answer is always wrong obviously, because I know nothing, being only a mum). But she is clever and well motivated.

10 yo - we have had huge homework battles over the years. Typical saturday morning was 2-3 hours of fuss and complaint followed (eventually) by 40 minutes of homework. So we came to a deal, he does it in his room, he can choose when, and how well he does it. I check it is done, the quality and quantity is between him and his teacher. He is not allowed out/on computer on saturday until it is done. He sometimes comes and asks for support/help, but mostly does it himself

x-posted, but to answer your 22.44 post... Yes. Homework should be at a level that the child can do themselves. (Slight exceptions say if you were asking small children to go outside and collect signs of Autumn or something, when clearly the adult would need to supervise the trip to the park or whatever.)

I think your comment about struggles reflects very much on the character of the child, and how willing they are to do the homework.

Often half the amount done properly, or done together with parental help so it is effective is better than a long drawn out struggle over getting it done at all costs.

Do you generally expect children to do their homework without any adult supervision or intervention? DS is younger so he is always supervised when doing his homework - and supported where necessary.

Whilst you may have the capabilities to do that, the teacher cannot assume that the other 29 parents in the classroom can. You need to take in to account the parents who work full time or shift work, parents who may have limited or no English, parents with disabilities, parents who may have limited education themselves or may not value education.

It's funny, lots of people, myself included, have answered your question and explained why one child has 20 questions and another has 10. However you seem determined to tell us all that we are wrong.

Yes, if you have a motivated child and motivated parents with time to spend then the child can complete more work at home and it might help them to make faster progress. However, most children and parents don't want to spend hours on homework at a young age.

I would expect parents of children in my class to read through the activity with their child, check they understood what they had to do and then leave them to try it on their own. If they then chose to go through it with the child I'd ask them to use a different coloured pencil so I could tell what the child did on their own.

Galena, don't be defensive. I'm not looking for an argument and my question about whether children should do their homework unsupervised was just that - a question.

Of course there is a whole other side to this, which is whether or not primary age children should do homework at all!

There is an issue around educating the whole child. For example, my ds is and always has been very physical. Sitting in a classroom all day is hard work for a very physical kid. So after school he needs to run and climb, play football and go out on his bike. This isn't just a nice idea or play, there is good evidence that if you alternate the use of large muscles, with fine motor skills, then the one helps/improves the other.

So, there is a good argument to say that we should encourage kids to play outside and keep fit etc when not at school. And then add on the engineering/design/spatial awareness skills that are developed doing things like building lego.

So on balance I think that giving out more homework is not a great idea anyway.

I wasn't being defensive. I was puzzled by your insistence that you are right and everyone else is wrong. And if you look, I answered your question.

I'm not insistent that I am right and everyone else is wrong. The only area where I feel I am right is in relation to my own child. I fully accept that what is right for one may not be right for another. IMO teachers should treat children as individuals - great if you are doing that - not sure it always happens but I'm sure you are going to tell me otherwise!