Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

"So" is a sight word and can't be sounded out...

312 replies

Stampstamp · 19/09/2013 13:11

Said the reception class teacher today. Aaargh! Thank heavens DD can already mostly read (she's nearly 5). Why do some teachers and schools have such a limited understanding of phonics, it seems so fundamental to me?

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Growlithe · 21/09/2013 12:27

I think that using sounding out alone would make books a chore in the early days, and I know that if I made my DD use only this method it would put her off reading.

I know she is doing OK because she does sound out words, and I can see in her writing she is using phonics.

Growlithe · 21/09/2013 12:33

so* why not explain that the is the spelling for the sound /or/ and then she has the knowledge to read the whole word plus any others with the same representation for the sound ... no pictures required!

Because sometimes she doesn't want a phonics lesson, she just wants to read a story. And I think it would be a crying shame if I took that away from her.

mrz · 21/09/2013 12:40

It isn't a phonics lesson ...she's stuck on a word you prompt (takes a second or two at most) and you empower her for the future ... when she will want/need to read books without pictures

Growlithe · 21/09/2013 12:40

Sorry for all the bold fails BTW. On awkward phone!

Growlithe · 21/09/2013 12:55

mrz DD would not enjoy me stopping a story she is reading to do this unless it was on her terms. This is her perhaps her personality.

I know she is coming along nicely in school at phonics. I know because her teachers tell me, because she does use it in her reading and because she displays it in her writing.

But although if she was reading with you in school it would take you no more than a few seconds to explain, it would cause her more frustration than pleasure if done whilst reading one of her books at home for pleasure, on my knee.

mrz · 21/09/2013 13:04

What would you do if she couldn't work out a word from the illustration?

Growlithe · 21/09/2013 13:14

She would appreciate the help then of course and so it would be an opportunity to give it. Sometimes this is the case when the picture is there too.

Would you tell me to stop all this then if she was in your class?

mrz · 21/09/2013 13:17

If she were in my class she wouldn't need to use pictures

teacherwith2kids · 21/09/2013 13:37

Speaking perhaps more as a parent than a teacher at this point, I would say that if a child uses a picture that is there to guess a word that is OK when looking at a book for pleasure, as long as nobody thinks that it is 'reading'. It isn't, it's guessing. And if a child was doing it in a 'reading lesson' envionment (reading in scool, reading a school book at home') both partries should be absolutely clear what is happening and would go back and review WHY the word said that and to give the phonic explanation,

In a similar vein, DS used to 'recite' - absolutely word perfectly - long books that he had had read to him (Little red train books or similar). Other people thought he must be reading. I knew that he was reciting from memory. I would never say 'good reading', i said things ike 'wow, yuou know that story really well, don't you'.

The aim is to read words, in order to make sense of texts. If on the way, in fun, on a few occasions, a cild 'guesses' at a complex word, as long as everyone knows that it IS a guess [and may sometimes go back and talk about how else it might have been approached, perhaps once the text is finished if in the middle of a story], it is not harmful. The only thing that would be harmful is if the 'guessing' is praised as 'well done, you have read a long word' and the child starts to apply that as a reading strategy, which is going to fail horribly at a future point - whereas phonics won't.

Iwaswatchingthat · 21/09/2013 14:18

Am I the only one who thinks teaching alternate sounds for every grapheme is near impossible?

Our language is so complex there are hundreds of alternate sounds.

DFEE approved training advocates using action words and the like for certain words.

ClayDavis · 21/09/2013 14:22

You're probably not the only one who thinks that. But it isn't impossible or near impossible. There are plenty of schools who do it very successfully.

Iwaswatchingthat · 21/09/2013 14:24

They do eventually of course - phase five is for this and is very, very long and not conclusive.

But in the early days to get children going and enable them to read and write at a level which is required of them then it is not necessary.

mrz · 21/09/2013 14:28

Iwaswatchingthat actually there are just 175 ways to represent the sounds of the English language so it is a realistic expectation for a child to master them relatively quickly so it is very possible unlike learning half a million words by sight

Iwaswatchingthat · 21/09/2013 14:30

'Just 175' Grin Ok.

If you keep looking there are many, many more. I have a colleague who collects them - she is now up to 215.....

Iwaswatchingthat · 21/09/2013 14:31

I am off out now - just in case you think I don't reply to later posts.

ClayDavis · 21/09/2013 14:39

Leaving 'phase 5' until year 1 seems to be quite specific to letters and sounds. Most schemes introduce alternative pronunciations/spellings earlier than that IME. Even then L&S teaches tricky words by pointing out and explaining the tricky graphemes so is teaching some alternatives from the beginning.

mrz · 21/09/2013 14:41

I suggest your colleague needs to rethink what she is actually classifying as sounds

Cat98 · 21/09/2013 15:23

I can sympathise with growlithe here, although I am pretty convinced by all the pure phonics arguments.

My ds (5) is doing well with reading, but I think his school uses mixed methods. However he appears to be one of the 80% who manage ok with this. Interestingly, we took him for a (free - done by a family friend who tutors) assessment the other day and she said he has a reading age of 7, but that his memory is amazing and she feels he has memorised a lot of the words and how they look rather than sounding out most of the time. I know he can sound out, but it's true he chooses not to and because he is quite capable, probably doesn't need to. At the moment - however I am a bit concerned that it may cause issues in the future.

I know school do some phonics, and by all accounts he's doing well leaning them, he just rarely seems to use them when reading and like growlithe says, stopping the books at home to get him to sound out all the time puts him off the story.

I don't really know what else I can do though, at the moment I just want to keep his interest in books and not put him off - he already prefers screen time :( so if just telling him a word when he gets it wrong rather than trying to get him to sound it out helps with this, I feel it's the approach I should take at home.

mrz · 21/09/2013 15:29

As I keep saying there isn't any need to stop the books at home just supply the information in the pause where the child is stuck with a word rather than encouraging guessing by looking at pictures.

Iwaswatchingthat · 21/09/2013 17:22

Ok I will pass on your comments to her!

Phonics is hugely important, but so are syntax and semantics. They are connect.

Iwaswatchingthat · 21/09/2013 17:23

Whoops - mean they all connect!

atterley · 21/09/2013 17:59

Good grief, I'm relieved that my children learned to read before educationalists decided it was so complicated.

How many children have ever had their reading ability held up by reading with somebody who took the time to read with them but didn't totally understand the latest fashionable teaching method?

meditrina · 21/09/2013 18:19

Well, it's only really been a problem in UK since the 1970s when phonics (the centuries old traditional method) was abandoned for a whole bunch of other approaches, all of which have produced worse outcomes.

Why there is such resistance to using the older, and better, method is beyond me.

mrz · 21/09/2013 18:28

atterley Look & Say & Mixed methods are the newcomers to teaching reading and in their relatively short history have failed thousands of children great if your child is a one of those fortunate enough to learn despite the method not so good if your child failed to become literate

Growlithe · 21/09/2013 19:06

I don't think I have said that I encourage the use of pictures to guess words. I am as supportive as my child is learning all of her phonics sounds. I was taught using phonics myself as far as I can remember, I can picture being in class and learning 'ch' and 'th' for example (and I was in school in the 70s). I'm sure someone will be along to tell me I wasn't taught correctly but I do see the point of phonics and try to chat to my DD about the sounds she has worked on that day on the way home.

I just can't see the harm in a child reading a book at home without this being used as a test of her ability to read all the words without using the pictures. You couldn't use the pictures to guess every single word of the text so I know she isn't doing this.

But, using my earlier example, I think my child would have more of a problem when reading a story about an astronaut, getting to the word, being able to read the beginning of it (with phonics knowledge) and stumbling on it because they didn't realise the story they were reading was about a man in space (even if there were no pictures). If a child wasn't understanding the story at that level, what is the point of reading the words anyway?