Telegraph Letter: The government should stop intervening in early education

[hopingforbest]

couldn't agree more... can't mumsnet also gather together to put weight behind this (or maybe most people don't agree?). Possible to have a poll?

www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/10302844/The-Government-should-stop-intervening-in-early-education.html

The Development Matters hasn't vanished it has been moved to a new site www.foundationyears.org.uk/early-years-foundation-stage-2012/ along with all EYFS publications ... however it has never been statutory and was only intended to support teachers in implementing the statutory requirements of the EYFS.

Yes muminlondon EYFS applies to everyone working with the 0-5 age group.

it became clear thursday night bbc newsnight interveiw

with liz truss

they dont believe' in child led/centred learning.

they think everyone on low incomes are incapable getting child ready for school ie lacks social skills, no books ect.

the changes they talked about this year

ratios at nursery
testing and ranking at 5
on top of flipping phonics test year 1
changing of efys scoring.

all undermines efys.

she says early years teachers dont get paid enough.

preschool leader half pay of primary teacher
qualfied nursery staff get paid less than cleaner.

if early years so flipping important why only fund 15hours
?

why not invest and subsidise early years an extend .

because schools cheaper an full time prep school is same as fulltime nursery here.

They want people to work so school is seen as childcare.

school has monopoly dont know many affordable prep schools pr nurseries that take kids until later.

I know lots childminders that quit,

preschool provision is patchy.

anyone know how long welsh been foundation phase until 7 and what outcome was as they introduced testing this year.

Also why scotland ended up later and diffrent academic year?

Isn't this a confusion of the general and the particular? Presumably some children (as someone pointed out further upthread) are more ready for formal education at four than others are. A blanket assumption that all children must be shielded from meaningful reading books and worthwhile paper exercises at four because others aren't ready for them is about as smart as a rule with states that everybody in Britain must eat through a straw because some people can't handle solid food.

My own view is that some very young children (like mine) are perfectly happy with formal education. And if some others aren't then that's fine too. But I'd hate some woolly individuals to prevent my children being educated formally because they don't like the idea. (And I won't be eating through a straw any time soon either.)

mam children are already assessed at 5 and they are proposing ranking at 11 not 5
The phonics check takes roughly 4 minutes out of the whole year and identifies gaps in a child's knowledge early in order that they don't fall behind so how is it a bad thing?

Teachers working in EYs get paid exactly the same as teachers working in KS1, 2,3 and 4.

Ms Truss was talking about a new qualification for those working in private childcare which historically has paid low wages perhaps something to take up with nursery chains who are happy to employ unqualified (and those with basic qualifications) staff at minimum wages to maintain profits?

Yes muminlondon EYFS applies to everyone working with the 0-5 age group.

Only in OFSTED registered settings on the EY register. Nannies, including those on the vOCR, and certain other settings (Indy schools etc) are exempt.

And only those with QTS, which is a graduate qualification, get paid the same. EYPs or managers/leaders are often paid much less because they aren't on the QT pay scale and in the case of managers and leaders may only have a level 3.

There's been a supply of cheap labour in childcare for years because that's where girls who can't do anything else are steered and the academically able are discouraged. A lot of investment is needed to catch that up.

EYFS applies to Independent schools NomDeClavier with the exception of settings that have successfully applied and been awarded exemption www.foundationyears.org.uk/2012/10/qa-exemptions-from-eyfs-learning-and-development-requirements/

nannies etc are not considered to be providing EY education and are regarded in the same ways as parents or other relatives caring for children in the home.

EYPs aren't on the "school teachers pay scale" because they aren't qualified to teach in schools

Mrs z i dont see much state efys provision.

most use private nurseries.
preschools which are charities low paid staff and rely on parents to form a commitee.

There as very few state nurseries here,

only 2 primary schools have a nursery class in my county.

I know in wales most schools have a nursery class but in england thats not the case.

The pay structure you mention only really exists in the state sector.

private schools pay what they like.

lots nursery staff on less than school classroom assistant.

i know few managers with the magic efys early years practioner one a ex primary and neither well paid most managers of nursery on less than 20k a year.

Also i fear we making more barriers by upskilling more people to degree level.

My daughters nursery staff may not be well qualified levels 2, 3 at most.

But they take good care of her.
she loves them
they capable of delivering preschool education to good level.
good ratios of staff to kids.
patiant/understanding treat kids as individuals.

all this without being degree educated.

what infants needs is

more play
flexibility over start date so sept baby could start earlier say month either side.
defering until later or even year 1 without losing aplace.
option to go part time.

allow kids to sleep or chill if need be,

more exercise and sports not just 1hour pe a week.

more focus on art and music.
no homework.

more cooking-that happens once in a blue moon in schools.

more 1 to one and better ratios im aware that not all teachers have tas.
less tests.

more forest schools and outdoor play.

kids bit more freedom so like nursery they have choice which zone they spend time in.

I have seen 1st hand how schools damaged eldest .

I support this petition.

mrsz you know this and I know this but it's not helpful to make sweeping statements like saying the EYFS applies to everyone and nursery teachers are paid the same. Many people will consider nannies working with 0-5 and Indy schools too, but exemptions exist for them. Likewise many people think of nursery leaders especially in preschool rooms as teachers even when they don't have QTS or sometimes when they do have QTS they may not be integrated because it's private provision.

These distinctions are painfully clear to people working within EY, because we spend our lives navigating legislation and guidance and what is statutory and what isn't (especially when you're one of the exceptions), but on a discussion about a petition it's important to be clear. I'm not adding these points to be snippy, I'm adding them so parents coming across the thread will have a better idea of what is going on and hopefully understand the issues.

I am being snippy with the Govt because I don't agree with what they're doing though!

In my area (England) it is mainly state nursery provision, most schools have a nursery class or a group of schools are serviced by a separate nursery school) with relatively little private and obviously varies across the country but that doesn't change things
I personally only know one EYFS practioner in the whole of my LEA (family friend ) and know private day care providers employing unqualified or level 1 staff and parents look at the ratio and think it is wonderful ...
Most schools in my area have continuous access to outdoors and forest school provision. In my own school children cook at least once a week and have an area with a mattress and pillows to sleep or just chill so perhaps assuming our experiences are the norm is a mistake.
these links are to a local nursery I know well
www.wingatenursery.com/page.asp?id=78
www.wingatenursery.com/page.asp?id=72
www.wingatenursery.com/downloaddoc.asp?id=133
www.wingatenursery.com/downloaddoc.asp?id=136

Even if those sweeping statements are true ? and EYFS does apply to Indy schools

I appreciate that mrs z and understand its the case in some areas but not all so efys provision is patchy wher i live on outskirts of big city.

my nearest state school with nursery is over 2miles away.

the schools with the nurseries attached are mostly in deprived areas and schools that are not highly thourght of.

All the preschool provision here is charity or private.

The preschool gets 2 and 3 year old grant funding.

some funding for preschool leader but not huge amounts.

I think efys does apply primaries as they would have to to get early years grant.

People i speak to in early years say paperworks excessive.

as long as nusery staff can communicate, interact, teach them basic skills social, sharing, hygeine, eating, manners.
can teach basics numbers, letters shapes and colours.
play
sing
read stories.

then thats good enough for me shouldent be degree to do that.,

people who work in childcare dont do it for the money they love kids.

younger kids and kids who are behind need smaller ratios and more informal learning.

Theres some who left nursery for school dd2s freinds shes sept just missed and they just dident seem ready.

dd1s old school rception gone totally fulltime from start, disourages part time or defering.

I live in a small village and my children attended a nursery school (over 2 miles away on a very deprived housing estate - most local people didn't venture there) and they had a fantastic start to their education due to the dedicated highly qualified and very experienced staff - ratios 1 adult to 13 children.

"I think efys does apply primaries as they would have to to get early years grant." not sure what this means?

I know lots of people working in EYs who produce excessive paperwork but often that is down to pressure from heads and advisors and an unwillingness to challenge. EYFS says there is no need to record everything yet EY staff are rarely seen without clipboards or even ipad apps recording children's every move/word

But it doesn't apply to all Indy schools, like I said certain other types of childcare/education (Indy schools who have sought and obtained an exemption for one) are not obliged to follow it, ergo not everyone has to follow it, including registered nannies as well as unregistered ones caring for children in the 0-5 age range - and that they do have to is quite a common misconception. There are over 100,000 nannies working across the UK so it's a fairly significant proportion of the childcare workforce.

Even if one confines it to group settings exemptions may seem insignificant but they aren't to a parent who actively doesn't want their child in a setting where staff have to follow what the Govt deems necessary rather than what the parent prefers.

www.foundationyears.org.uk/2012/10/qa-exemptions-from-eyfs-learning-and-development-requirements/

i meant private primaries if you look at fees mentions efys grant as deduction off bill so guess if they accept the grant they have to follow efys.

nearest prep seems to use national curriculum loosly anyway.

regardless of whether the school receives eyfs funding they are required to follow the curriculum unless exemption has been granted mam

I've signed the petition.

All children are different, some will enjoy a degree of formal structured learning, others won't, in the early years. BUT formal learning shouldn't be the top priority at this stage - or at the expense of normal psycho-social development.

I do wish the Government - well, Gove - would listen to those with more experience

Unfortunately many of those "expert" signatories have no more experience or knowledge of early years education than Mr Gove

There shouldn't be a single EYFS curriculum. Children in the early years are so very different from one another at the same age that schools/teachers need masses of latitude to meed the needs of each child. And different sorts of schools are necessary - some DC are desperate to read and write aged 4 and others will need significant encouragement to do so aged 7.

Hello all

Just in case you hadn't seen, we have a guest blog from Prof Al Aynsley-Green, who was one of the signatories to last week's letter to the Telegraph, over here.