What to do? DD currently in state school but has an opportunity to go to private turned free school.

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Private school round the corner from us has just been given free school status and will be taking in admissions for next sept. School secretary has advised me all current pupils are guaranteed a place so if i pay for one term i am guaranteed a place for my dd. The school say class size will be 22 max and stay on till 16.
My DD is currently attending local state primary school which is ok. 80 children per year in two classes She enjoys it, has friends etc.
She is however behind on math (2b) and english (2a). She has just gone into year 4. She is fantastically creative and excels in art.

Local secondary schools in my catchment are below average.

I am torn with what to do. I grew up in a deprived area, rough school and left without any decent qualifications. DH did attend private school and has done well since leaving. I always thought if given the chance for a better or private education i would jump at the chance for her but i am worried about the social side of things and whether it would be damaging to her to pull her out of a school she loves . We could afford one term to guarantee a place but not full time private.

Wise mumnets please help!

Hummm, what's your sense of why dd is behind on maths & english -that would make a difference to me. We moved ds towards the beginning of Y4, and I was amazed how quickly he settled. And that was for a school that finishes in y6 - with so long ahead of her, I'd have thought it was worth the leap IF you think it's a good school/offers a good fit with your dd (have you looked round?)

One thought: once this becomes common knowledge, won't there be LOTS of people applying for one term to get guaranteed places? Can you confirm that your dd's place will be held for two terms so you only have to pay for one?

a) check what is meant by "current" - if it meant on the roll at date conversion was approved, you cannot now qualify

b) the aim might be to keep class sizes at 22, but once in the maintained sector, they will be subject to the Admissions Code and may well lose appeals if the PAN is deemed artificially low (if they have genuinely tiny classrooms, then it might be an upholdable limit, but don't bank on it).

Then again, if the current primary has 40 per class, I can see why you would be contemplating a move. But so might other families, making it much nearer to the norm of 30 in both schools. Avoiding the stress of secondary school transfer is definitely a benefit, though.

Why did it seek to convert, btw? If it failed to attract enough paying pupils to remain viable, is it actually that good?

I'm not sure.

Because (to me) a private going free implies that it wasn't making enough money as private, and I would wonder why.
I would love to send my dc private-and they would all benefit from it in different ways, but we can't afford one, let alone all, so I understand why you're tempted.

Privates vary from the excellent to the dreadful. So you need to assess that school, not the idea in general.

Also if your dd has siblings, will they be guaranteed a place? What happens if they don't get enough take up (would they then stay private)? If you go and it doesn't work out, what options have you then?

Med i didnt actually think why it decided to convert (stupid me) Alot of schools in the local area are over subscribed and there are alot of private and grammar schools also in the area too.

Must correct myself - current school has 60 per year not 80. Iamcounting another mum i know local to me with kids in current school told me about this. She has 5 children and wont be able to afford one term per child so not sure about other local children.

Dewe if it doesnt work out i have very little options. DD current school is not in my catchment now (we moved) so we would be left trying to find another place at a state school.
DH think we shouldnt pay and risk moving her before we know for sure and wait and see if she is accepted for sep. He said he she gets a place great. If we pay and things change we are stuck.

"Alot of schools in the local area are over subscribed and there are alot of private and grammar schools also in the area too. "

If you're in a city with grammar schools, there will be a lot of people tempted to pay for primary (in order to increase their chances, in their eyes, of getting into the state grammar) and then willing to pay for secondary (to get, again in their eyes, a quasi-grammar). If a private school can't manage to keep its head above water in that environment, you have to ask why. A desire to get into the super-selectives, and a plan-B after not getting into the super-selectives, keeps a surprising number of private schools running in my city. Given the quality of those that do stay in business (OK, but nothing astounding), I'd be sceptical about one that couldn't.

Secondly, almost all private schools are de facto or de jure selective, either on admission or at the "perhaps you might like to consider going elsewhere" parents' evening. Selective schools rarely have the experience, interest or ability to deal with children who are currently low attainers. There are honourable exceptions, but they're rare, and tend to specialise so you'd know if that was its strength. A lot of people who pay for an education want to pay for an imagined 1957 grammar education, all facts and wooden desks and O Levels, and that doesn't tend to sit well with a nurturing approach to bringing the best out of people who are struggling. Building that attention for people who need a little more help takes time.

Thirdly, I'd be very surprised if the admission policy you describe is actually the case. It appears to breach almost every clause of the admissions code. I would suspect that all children who have places at the point of conversion are guaranteed places, but the conversion has already happened. The school secretary is not, with respect, the admissions officer, and free school admissions are handled via the LEA common application form, not directly by the school. There are other threads about admission myths, sometimes spread by schools themselves, and I would be very surprised if what you have been told is in fact correct. I could be wrong.

What meditrina says about the PAN is right, too. It's unlikely that under current funding formulae any school could maintain class sizes like that in the long term, and even if they tried, they would find it very difficult to resist appeals which have the effect of raising the PAN.

Just check account records (they are a charity). They made a slight lose last year around £5000 and their income has dropped by around £500,000 since 2008.

"their income has dropped by around £500,000 since 2008."

They've lost probably around fifty pupils and not replaced them.

I'd be really wary. Are the teachers used to teaching the whole range of abilitities? And larger classes? Independent schools have a range of teachers from the excellent to the dire and don't require teachers to be qualified, which may or may not matter. A school on the decline may have lost its best staff already. I think that the amount if ongoing training of teachers and sharing of ideas and resources can be lacking in private schools (though obviously not the case in all private schools).

I need to go to the school with a list of question dont i ?

I'd wonder how a school with funding at state school levels could afford to have classes of 22 or fewer. I don't have any knowledge of free school funding arrangements, but state primaries need to have more in each class to make things work.

"I'd wonder how a school with funding at state school levels could afford to have classes of 22 or fewer. "

Some of the free schools have been claiming they can do it, but I'm sceptical. Long-term, they're going to get the same capitation as other maintained schools. They might in the short term be able to play games with their initial start up money, and some have got transitional funding to deal with not having a full school in year 1; a secondary, in particular, will need a full range of subjects even if it only has a year 7, so might have ten staff even if it hasn't got 300 pupils. And in some cases they might get some funding from a sponsor who is willing, for now at least, to underwrite the whole thing; for example, several universities have responded to the changes in teacher training by proposing to run a free school, and also put some money in because of the benefits to the university. But none of these seem terribly sustainable, or guaranteed over the time a child might be at the school. Any school which offers class sizes under the standard numbers needs to be asked some very tough questions about where, long term, the funding is coming from. A school's main costs are its staff.

Hi

Is this a school with the initials LC? Only we were due to go to a private school last year, but moved a year early to another one, which suits dd better, but were surprised to hear that the first one has become an academy, so no more fees!

A friend had been looking to move her son and has been told the same as you, that if they start this term, they will get a place, it may not be the same school, but that is definitely what they were told.

Also that they have to accept a certain number of pupils from the immediate area, not sure how they will work that one out as to who gets on, but rumours are it would be by exam/ assessment.

I know that doesn't answer your question, but I would take my chances, if it has been a good school, especially the one I mention, that ethos is still going to last a few years and it will get you to Yr 6 and hopefully a grammar. As for the move, dd moved, albeit earlier, but it was much easier than we anticipated. Thinking about it was much worse than the doing!

Best of luck.

" but rumours are it would be by exam/ assessment."

That's not allowed - no new selective schools can be set up. It'll have to be criteria permitted by the Admissions Code (essentially: SEN, LAC and adopted from LAC, permitted other categories (social/medical need, teachers' children, faith qualified, siblings etc) then other applicants. Tie break is usually distance from school or lottery.

Very interesting scaevola. I thought that was the case, but then perhaps as an academy, they could do what they like.

I will be watching what happens - not that it affects us - just I'm nosey!

DofEd on Free Schools Admissions

I think this could be a great opportunity but would also urge caution. My DD1 attends an academy that was formerly a private school and the place seems great. The first a academy intake sat their GCSEs in May and the surpassed the results that they had as a private/selective Schiller with over 90% A*-C in enclose and maths.

They do have an entrance exam, but this is for fair-banding purposes, to ensure a fully comprehensive intake.

I'm not sure what is the significance of the difference between a free school and an academy is though (my DD1's school is an academy).

A child who is behind is not necessarily behind due to 30 kids in the class.

You really need to work out what's happening. Why is she behind.

And then you need to find the school which is best at teaching her. Small classes is no guarantee of better teaching.