Advice needed re dd's end of ks2 report/sats levels

[Katie172]

I would be very grateful for advice from any teachers and parents out there . We have just received dd's report and sats levels. I have posted on earlier threads about the dire situation in dd's year 6 class this year and have spoken on several occasions to the teacher and the ht but was assured . amongst other things on every occasion that dd would end ks2 above the national average of 4b. Dd is not my eldest dc and usually I am not too worried about sats levels but dd had struggled at primary school due to dyslexia, I say 'had' because in year 5 she started to do really well and she was growing in confidence. We were so pleased for her and were told at the end of year 5 that she was expected to end her time at primary possibly with a level 5 but almost certainly 4b's/4a's.

Her teacher assessed sats levels are all 4b and 4a but we were stunned to see that her sats results are all 3's with the exception of a 4. No sublevels were given for the sats results but sublevels were given for the teacher assessed results.

There have been huge problems in dd's class, namely 18 supply teachers since September. I have requested an urgent appointment with the ht and would appreciate any advice . With such a shocking drop in sats levels we are worried that dd's next school will believe that she is incapable of accessing the full curriculum. Before I do that I would be so pleased to hear from anyone who can advise me......
Thanks in advance
Katie

i wouldnt worry about sats results. they are a load of rubbish. Whats more important is the teachers assesment and if they say she is working at that level i would be very proud. not great that she has had so many supply teachers though.

It can be very disappointing when your child doesn't get the results you were expecting or hoping. SATs results are used by secondary schools to put your DC into sets for Maths, English and Science. They will, however, use the raw scores rather than the level. So, if she got a high level 3 (3a as it were) they might be considered to be as capable of a child with a low level 4 (4c) as this could be the difference of one mark in the raw scores. High schools do their own tests towards the end of the first half term and will change the sets for DC accordingly. IME the head of year/head of maths in new school probably won't use teacher assessments to change DD's sets however much you discuss it with primary HT or them as they prefer to use their own test results anyway. It doesn't hurt to let them know at her high school that you are worried that she isn't in the correct set for her ability but better that she moves up a set quickly because she is more than capable than move down because her teachers assessments weren't necessarily right. Also it is not uncommon for a 4a student to get a level 3 because they panicked on test day and spent so long on one tricky question that they ran out of time and lost points because they didn't finish the paper.
BTW if her level 3 was in the news Grammar/Punctuation and Spelling paper....it isn't used towards anything this year for those children (high school wise).
I suppose what I am saying is....don't worry too much. It will all come out in the wash at secondary during the first term.

BTW you can ask the HT or her year 6 teacher for her raw scores to get a better idea of her results.

Having said that...."Ladyemem" is right in a way....they are rubbish in that they don't give a truly accurate idea of what a child is/isn't capable of.....only what they could answer from that test paper, on that day.

I would completely worry! Our secondary schools organise their sets based on the SAT scores. Very wrong IMO but just the way they do it. I'd be asking your school to write to the secondary. Your poor DD obviously crumbled under pressure as a lot of 10/11 years olds would do

I really wish they'd use teacher assessment

I'd want to see the papers as it's far below your predicted levels and flag it up at secondary too.

My son also got a 3 in the spelling punctuation paper - he has dyslexic type difficulties and ASD.
Dd who is his twin got 5's in everything. I was wondering whether to complain about why they hadn't helped HIM more to get him to a 4, or whether his result didn't count for them because he was on SEN register. They had a special class for the would be "6"s so there was the staff, just deployed upwardly rather than for the borderline 3/4's

I just don't know whether to press them, so late in the year, when my child is leaving for secondary. But I feel shortchanged somehow. Surely their job is to help all the children achieve the national average, and give remedial help if that is proving difficult? I don't feel Ds2 got much help for his academic problems, even if they tried hard with the ASD side, nor was anyone getting agitated on his behalf. Should it have been me?

Thank you for all your replies-I really appreciate them. It will be great if the secondary school can disregard them but I am guessing that the best thing to do is to be brave and ask them. The primary school ht made a big thing to all the year 6's in the run up to sats about it being so important for setting in their next school that I think it is possible that dd crumbled but I am not sure...I think that it is more likely that the stream of supply teachers and lack of lesson planning has affected dd...the class has missed much of the curriculum. Thank you again...I will speak to the primary ht and head of year in the secondary school

Swanhilda Dd did get a 3 in the SPAG paper but I was not too worried about that because ,despite her very best efforts , her spelling is terrible and the class have received minimal punctuation and grammar instruction at school. I am much more worried about her plummeting in maths and English. Our school has the top band , middle and low ability bands identified from year R . I feel that my dd has been failed

Ladyemen and longsufferingmrs....I do take the points you have made but when there is such a big gap between levels isn't it fair to think that the secondary school is going to be dismissive of the teacher assessment and use the sats result to set dd for core subjects? When a ht signs off a report with such huge discrepancies (sorry cannot think of the right word) would the ht be expected to ask the teacher (especially when they are supply teachers) to show evidence of the dc working at a much higher level than the actual sats would suggest so they (the ht) can be satisfied that the teacher assessments are correct?

I would assume that it is normal to have a difference of a sublevel between teacher assessments and sats results but these gaps are big and I know that this is very bad at the end of ks2 . Whatever your views on sats this will follow dd to her next school and I think that she has been badly let down. Dh has had a mega rant but is now away for a few days so I have to deal with this. Any advice on what to say to the ht would definitely be welcome!!

Don't worry, SATs are only one of the measures we use to set, and that only for a very short time. As a secondary school we know all about the issues inherent in SATS and we assess regularly and sets are fluid

Officially a child under level 4 is deemed low attainer on entry and in practice will get more support to make expected progress

The only time SATs are important IMO is when we report n progress ks2 to ks4

English is teacher assessment at ks2 only maths is test

Nothing to add about your DD's progress to secondary school (but you have my sympathies and I hope she has a better time there) but you may be comforted by the thought that your school's poor SATs results will be much discussed next term when the board of governors merits to talk about KS1 and KS2 results. Serious questions WILL be asked and if there's a big drop in attainment, it could trigger an Ofsted visit.

Not really, boundandrebound - there are teacher assessments for speaking and listening, reading and writing which add up to a teacher assessment for English, but there is also a reading test and a spelling, punctuation and grammar test.

Maths does have a test and a teacher assessment, and Science has teacher assessment only.

Katie172:

I don't know official results for our school yet, but have a few friends who have told me they've had a similar shock to your own.

First off - as some have suggested - you need to understand where she scored on the level 3 threshold. Did she just miss Level 4 by a few percentage points (literally one or two questions answered wrong?) or was she way down at the low end (just above a Level 2). This is important to gauge how 'far behind' she is notionally. [However, some children just don't like the pressure of tests and never are at their best in such situations].

Second - in some areas there are summer schools for pupils who have not achieved NC Level 4 on KS2 SATs to help them secure core skills prior to starting secondary school. I'm not certain whether all areas do this or not - but it may be worthwhile talking to both your primary and secondary schools to find out if anything like that is on offer.

If there isn't a summer school option there will be assistance when your DD starts senior school. Most senior schools have English and Maths clubs/ homework clubs to help support reading/ maths progress and many also have specialist TAs who work one on one or in small groups with pupils having particular difficulties in core subjects.

So although I'm certain it is concerning to find out your DD hasn't made the notional target for testing at end of KS2 - this ultimately may turn out to be a good thing. It's made you aware that she has certain weaknesses (maybe comprehension, or multiplication, etc...) that need support and possibly extra help at home. It means that you need to speak up for your DD at parent/ teacher meetings at her senior school and ensure that she is getting support to help her with 'core skills' and progress into KS3 curriculum. Finally, because she isn't a low level 4 (which on paper would look like she's just fine) - it means the school will notice her - and ultimately that is a good thing. Because a weak 4 may well mean she slips through the cracks or is placed in a group she struggles to keep up with.

Finally, you have to think about what kind of signals your sending at home. Are you encouraging study habits? Are you making sure there is a quiet place where she can work? Are you or your partner/ extended family about to help if she gets stuck? What are her influences at school - if she's around kids that play X-Box all day and never do homework - that may be a lot of the problem. I'm not saying you should cut these friends out - but it's important to win the battle of persuasion here - it may mean you're the bad guy - but ultimately a good education opens more doors and your DD needs to understand you won't do well in senior school if you don't put the effort in.

I'm ever so sorry you've had this disappointment but it's a set back that can be overcome. It will require you keeping on top of things (not just trusting she's 'doing her homework' but checking to see she 'gets it') and asking hard questions at parent/ teacher meetings. It may mean that there can be a bit of tension between you and the school - but ultimately you are all after the same thing - for your DD to do as well as she possibly can educationally.

HTH

Finally, you have to think about what kind of signals your sending at home. Are you encouraging study habits? Are you making sure there is a quiet place where she can work? Are you or your partner/ extended family about to help if she gets stuck? What are her influences at school - if she's around kids that play X-Box all day and never do homework - that may be a lot of the problem.

Blimey, how patronising is that? Don't be surprised if the OP returns and biscuits that advice.

Katie172

Feenie has suggested I've been patronising.

I'm sorry if that was the case:

The judgement isn't about you (I'm making no assumptions here) - just asking if you have built good routines?

Certainly at our school (within a large city) at least half of pupils in Y5 do not regularly do any homework assigned (they have to finish the work during lunch or breaks with TAs), many children do homework in front of tv (they claim this, I have no proof) and in KS2 when guided reading books no longer come home, many in my DD1's class do not regularly read. [homework is irregular - and rarely requires more than 20 minutes of a pupils time].

All I was trying to suggest was that it shouldn't just be down to the school and that gently encouraging (or indeed insisting) things like homework/ reading/ etc... happen can make a difference.

Katie172: influence on thinking good study habits in Senior School is beneficial here: www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/mar/29/homework-linked-better-school-results

and briefing from DFE-RB184a here: dera.ioe.ac.uk/13708/1/DFE-RB184a.pdf - see point 14 regarding time spent on homework in senior school. Now professor Sammons quite clearly isn't calling for 2-3 hours study a day for everyone - but where a child is doing 0 - 30 minutes of homework, she's suggesting that increasing that to an hour a day would make a significant difference (see news Oxford webpage here: www.education.ox.ac.uk/about-us/study-emphasises-value-of-doing-homework/

And Feenie although I'm heartened that you see what I suggested as common sense and obvious (thus patronising)- I can assure you around here that welcoming homework/ developing study habits is a minority view. The teachers at our school are strongly against homework and do not regularly assign it. This 'signal' is resulting in wholesale abandonment of reading at home for most and pupils rarely doing any sort of assignment work. They also seem to carry the view that no homework/ no practice is the way to go right into senior school - obviously reaping those rewards - both senior schools in this area struggle to achieve beyond 40% A-C at GCSE.

HTH

Feenie

When we download CTF from primary school which hold the SATs data we receive the points and overall level split out for each test and assessment.

We only use the overall grade on our systems so TA for English (assessment) and TT for maths (test). Last year less than 5% of records had science at all.

So whilst I understand that there are a whole range of assessments and tests that make up the final figures as a secondary school we only input the overall grade in to our assessment modules. To be fair we mainly ignore it as we use CATs and ongoing assessments to set and stream as the integrity and validity of SATs is questionable in my experience

That's just your school and how you use the information though - it's not representative of most schools, and it's certainly not the case that 'English is teacher assessment at ks2 only maths is test'.

This year is the first year there hasn't been an overall English test assessment, btw - wouldn't you have used that rather than the TA? Especially since you only accept Maths test scores, and not the TA.