Year 3 levels - can I start to judge whether Grammar is a realistic idea?

[PuzzledBear]

I've just had DD1's year 3 report with levels. We live near a superselective grammar and ideally I'd like her to have a shot at it when the time comes.

Her end of year levels are good but don't seem outstanding based on what I've seen on here. So I'm wondering whether I'm actually being realistic in hoping that she might have a chance. Any ideas?

Her levels are:
Literacy: writing 3a, reading 4c, speaking & listening 3a
Numeracy: 3b
Science: 3a

I would imagine that for a super selective grammar she would need to do some extra work, especially on her maths? If I were in your shoes, I would start looking at what she needs to achieve by the end of Y5 (loads of good resources on the 11+ forum) and start tackling it now.

They sound pretty good to me!!!

You could ask the school if they could give an idea of what levels in year 6 roughly tally to getting in, then work out (2 sublevels a year, I think) what it needs to be.

Obviously children improve at different rates, but I suspect the maths would not be good enough at present.
Dd1 got 4c across the board at year 3 stage, the superselective is too far for us to manage, but two of her friends did it who were similar to her. One got in and the other didn't. Interestingly the one who, at school, was rated slightly better didn't get in, but it shows that must be about the boarderline, I'd guess.

Yes musicalfamily, it's the maths I was wondering about. She is doing well, but well enough for a superselective? What do you think I should do? She quite likes doing those Bond books, and is doing the ones for next year atm, but obviously there is stuff there that she hasn't covered at school. I don't want to start teaching her things that she will learn at school next year, so I've just been making sure she knows her times tables.

And I don't want to put her under pressure, especially if the reality is that she doesn't have the natural aptitude for maths to see her into a grammar. I don't want to set her up for failure.

It's hard to judge, especially when I don't have any real sense of how good her levels are. I wish the school could show us how she's doing in relation to the rest of her cohort.

X-post, DeWe. Eek, 4c across the board? Oh dear, maybe my hopes are not all that realistic.

We are going for a private selective as there are no grammar schools around here, but DD1 is also 4c/4b end of Y3 BUT I wouldn't lose hope at all. I would get the bond books and go through them, even if it means teaching her new things. That's what we did anyway.

I know it's tough on the children but it's better than cramming them at the last minute and having to get tutors in. As I say though, if you go on the 11+ there are lots of ideas with regards to different ways of progressing the children, and some inspirational stories! I wouldn't get disheartened just yet x

PS With regards to cohort, it's kind of meaningless anyway, because for example my DD1 and another girl are top of the class with those levels (teacher told us) but wouldn't be if she had been in DS1's class as the latter is very high achieving and has a group of children in Y2 working at those levels already!!!!

I think there are lots of factors to take into consideration here. There are superselectives and then there are megasuperselectives - it really depends what area you are in. Some take top 2 - 3%, some take top 10%.

Some areas test in verbal and non verbal reasoning (more natural ability), some test in English and Maths as well/instead. Some schools seem more maths biased in their entrance exams, some seem more literacy biased.

I think you need to research the schools entrance exams and try and find out just how superselective they are.

I also think it is difficult to compare levels as schools seem to assess differently. A 3A in one school could easily be a 4C in another. Did they use some sort of standardised test like NFER? My DS looked distinctly 'average' at the end of KS1, but in a new school he was testing at all 4s and 5s by the end of yr 3.

I would also say the Maths needs some work but Maths can come on very quickly with additional support.

OP, do not, whatever you do, base it on what you see on these boards. It is not a real representation. These threads are populated by people whose children are high achievers, and are not a representative example.

I would suggest you go to the 11 plus website and see who knows what the test is like for the specific super selective you have in mind. As another poster said, NC levels can be irrelevant if the test is say VR and NVR only (as one super selective near us is ).

....and two other things. A child may be all L6 s by the time they take the test, but then flunk the test. I've seen children at my DCs school do that, and ones that were considered less bright sail through.

And, as you know, progression is not linear. Look at progress. Look at where your child was last year, how much progress? Lots of children have a big leap in Y5, for example.

My eldest has just finished Y4. He was L4 in numeracy and reading and a 3A in writing at the end of Y3 last yr. We are not in a grammar area but looking at a highly selective independent school and have been told that he needs to bring his writing scores up as most kids who get places will be level4s by the end of Y3 across the board. My understanding is that the school we are aiming for is less selective than the supersuper selectives and on a par with some of the others.

However, what they have said is that some kids getting solid L3s make huge strides in Y4&5 so parents should get a better gauge at the end of Y4. DS1's writing is still a bit behind but his maths and comprehension scores have soared so I'm hoping that's enough.

So basically, your DD's scores are good, above average and you'll get a clearer idea this time next year, IMO.

Thank you so much everybody. It's very helpful. I have been quite relaxed about it all up to now, but perhaps I need to rethink that a bit.

DD2 has a place at a superselective this September and as a guide, her Yr 3 report showed the following levels:-

Reading 4
Writing 3A
Speaking and Listening 4
Maths 3B

Please bear in mind that SATS levels vis a vis passing the 11+ are only a rough guide. Many's the time a child who looked like a high-flier with regard to SATS levels, didn't achieve a place at a GS and more especially, a superselective and of course the reverse also applies.

Good levels are a start and may give some indication as to suitability. What you will need to do, is find out what the 11+ exams entail, as far as your preferred schools are concerned. This site is very useful and you can then go to your selected regional board and find out what's tested on the day

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/viewforum.php?f=64

I absolutely would not recommend starting Bond Assessment Verbal Reasoning or Non-Verbal Reasoning books until you know for sure what format your test takes. Many people have fallen foul of the received wisdom that tells them that Bond Assessment books are the way to prepare for the 11+. They've devoted their preparation time to these books, only to find that their child has wasted their time and it's often too late to do anything about it. Some areas only test on the 21-question types and Bond do more than this. They can be a useful introduction but you need to check the format of your 11+ exam before you choose Bond as your preparation and familiarisation tool. I have to say "hats off" to Bond because they've done such an amazing marketing job and they're the first name people think of in terms of 11+ prep but they aren't necessarily appropriate - they certainly aren't in the CSSE Essex 11+

The Bond Maths, English and Comprehension books can be a useful tool in general terms - we found them so.

PuzzledBear

I've just noticed that you said you're already on the Bond books. If you find that these aren't appropriate for your 11+ exam, there's no harm in doing them if your DD likes them but be aware that you will have to shift focus elsewhere, if you choose to prepare.

I am also considering a grammar school for DS (yr3).

His levels were 3As mainly with 3B in literacy (although he is Aug born).

The grammar schools near us are not super selective though...

The grammar schools in our area aren't super selective, as far as I know, but we have been told that in Year 6 the children will need to achieve at least 5as across the board to get in. A child in Year 3 would probably need to be a 4c to reach that target but a lot can change in two years.

Thank you piggywigwig, maybe things don't look so bad then? The grammar is incredibly competitive to get into though, with huge numbers of applicants.

The entrance exam is verbal reasoning and numerical reasoning, followed by Maths and English papers. Does that sound like Bond territory? Perhaps since the first stage exams are reasoning, levels aren't so important?

In fact, what is numerical reasoning?? DD likes the Bond non-verbal reasoning papers and is good at them, but presumably that's different.

PuzzledBear - I'm in a similar situation to you although our local school is one of the super super selectives. They have to do verbal reasoning, English and maths papers. My ds is ok with his maths at the moment but needs some more help with his writing. I found that on the 11+ forum under the particular school you are considering they have lists of which books are recommended for teaching, practice and test papers in all of the subjects. It's definitely worth a look!