campaign for fairer admissions to faith based primary schools - your views...

[hopingforbest]

... on this www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22798206?

I'd strongly support a campaign to remove faith schools. The teaching of any religion as fact and not opinion has no part in schools IMHO. Sure, take your kids to church/mosque/temple etc at the weekend, but children if all faiths should be able to go to their local schools. If you want your dc brainwashed then the taxes shouldn't be used for this!
It promotes a 'them and us' mentality eg in N Ireland.

I realise the C of E has the state over a barrel with this as they own the buildings. So I doubt much will change unfortunately.

weasle, the Fair Admissions Campaign isn't about removing state funding from faith schools. There are other campaigns for that (e.g. see the BHA website). This campaign has a narrower focus, and is about opening up the admissions of faith schools. Its being run by an ecumenical coalition of groups, some of which like faith schools, and others that don't. However they're all working together on the one thing they do agree on, which is that if we're going to have state funded faith schools, their admissions should be open to everyone who wants to go to them. Its about parents choosing schools rather than schools choosing parents.

The most shocking part of any admissions code for a catholic school I have read is LAC (with baptism before 1 year + regular church attendance), then the regular church attendees etc, then LAC (not meeting the religious requirements) . What sort of heartless school expects children who have had disrupted and possibly chaotic lives to meet the religious requirement. The school is usually full with the children of church goers so would never get down that far.

It's covert selection of the already advantaged who have organized parents who get their bit of paper signed every week against a child who most likely won't have an advocate like that. That's in addition to excluding other faiths and children who may have moved a lot or come from separated parents. To discriminate against the odd lac child I thought was pretty low.

Yes Motorway I think it's so shocking about LAC non-Catholic children. I cannot fathom how this fits in with the teachings of Jesus. You're absolutely right that it entrenches advantage. Recent immigrants, refugees, members of the traveller community and children from chaotic families are unlikely to have lived somewhere the requisite two years and gone to church every week. These (in not all cases, but statistically) groups can be harder to reach. Ergo, if you eliminate them from your school you'll get a cohort that is more school ready. I have no issue with my children going to school with children from these groups (and they do - their school has children who've been taken into social services their parenting was so poor), but I do have an issue with there being a disproportionate number due to neighbouring schools excluding them. And then crowing about their results.

I do think that the Fair Admissions Campaign is pushing at a semi-open door on this politically, and if enough people get behind the campaign it could be successful in arguing for change. Public opinion, and some Church of England opinion, seems to be in favour, and some politicians (e.g. Vince Cable) are speaking out on the issue. Ironically, the coalition government already has a policy to facilitate inclusive admissions, its just not necessarily being implemented in some areas. It needs parents to speak out to get the snowball moving.

I personally think that more community schools should be built and faith schools should be strict with their criteria.
Some people go to church for 6 weeks just to try and meet the criteria, when others have been christened and attended the church from the off set. When there is over subscription it wouldn't be fair to let a non church attender into the school over those who do.
I think in this day and age it is better to find a house closest to the school you are able/ not wish you could attend.

Sorry morethan, why isn't it fair to let a non-church attender into the school over those that do attend? Why are their children more worthy of an education than the non-attender? This would be fair only if the community school was also allowed to prioritise the admission of a child of parents of no faith.

How are you going to afford to remove faith schools.About 1/3 of the schools in this country were orginally founded by the church and the buildings/land bequested to the LEA on the condition that religious charcter is maintained.This is legally binding. so it would mean finding new sites an funding the land purchase and building costs of tens of thousands of new schools !

I am very grateful that my sons go to a Catholic school. We aren't catholic and moved to the area a few months back. All the local schools were full, and we were lucky enough to get a place at a lovely Catholic school, despite us being of catchment and non believers. I don't even go to church. Our school is very diverse, and no one has hassled me to oppose gay marriage. No judgements for being a single mum, either. :-)

This issue is coming to a head in London where there is a huge increase in pupil numbers coming through and not enough school places to cater for them. It is by no means certain that the Free School Programme will have the funds, or non faith sponsors to meet demand. Even now in some boroughs you have a situation where parents who can meet the faith criteria ( whether from genuine belief or going through the motions) are effectively inoculated from the crisis whilst parents who cannot, either through principal, or not knowing about or being able to meet the criteria (as already discussed disproportionately amongst with the greatest social need) are discriminated against. Some of the latter are genuinely religious. The strict application of the requirement for baptism by six months by oversubscribed schools in London precludes many Catholics who come from countries, most notably Poland, where early baptism has not been custom and practise.

Some priests and vicars and their genuine congregation are also frustrated with a situation where their pews are filled with the parents of children of a certain age, and often affluence, prepared only to go through the motions of attendence and make a temporary contribution to the life of the church. This so especially when the children of those in need in their parish are unable to gain the benefit of their faith community's school. There is considerable support in faith community's for the principal that faith schools should provide benefit to the wider community, and be especially inclusive of those most in need.

Beautifully put Copthall.

I have to walk past the school at the end of my road less than 100m as it is RC absolutely no chance of getting in unless baptised less than 3mths, the local C of E school requires non stop attendance, and thats just the primaries
the secondaries are worse - attendance + activity to get points- points mean prizes and here the prize is a place in the only senior schools that aren't huge...its just wrong...local schools for local kids....that are not faith schools..

They are not just called faith schools for the sake of it - they do actually practice the faith in these schools. I'm pretty certain not everyone on here who thinks their DCs should go to a faith school actually has any idea what attendance at such a school this really involves for them or their children. At a catholic school for example it means masses at school, hymn practice, prayers at assembly, celebration of catholic holy days. There is no opt of of these things for those non believers. The church and catholic ethos are a core part of the school life. If I were not religious in any way I would find it very hard to be part of all that as a parent but it must be even harder for children.

shebird but it is a matter of choice isn't it? I am in favour of faith schools as a choice for those who are genuinely of a faith or have a cultural affiliation with that faith, but not where the shortage of school places means that they exclude those who have not gone through a set of hoops to get in. The choice becomes a privilege then, and discriminates against others. I am sure it is not what the Catholic church intends but in London those hoops have become a means of some parents walking over the backs of other parents to gain the privilege of a school place and turned schools that served faith community's into middle class ghettos. It also means that the desire for a place at a "good" school gets artificially conflated with faith. You are quite right that the "bells and whistles" may not be to everyone's taste but for some they may be the price they pay to get a school place at all, let alone one in a school of choice.

Shebird - I think most parents would rather a Catholic school than no school at all.
And if faith in schools is so important to those whose children attend them, why do they frequently opt for a non-religious school (e.g. a grammar or a community school with good results) when it seems to offer them something better?

So if a faith school can no longer accept children on the basis of faith and the school is oversubscribed what selection criteria should they apply? Distance? Again this will be selective as house prices will be driven up even further and only those that can afford live in the catchment area will get in. The only truly fair alternative is a lottery this causes issues for those with siblings already at a school. The problem will not be resolved by making faith schools change selection criteria what we need is a campaign for more schools and better schools.

I don't know where people get the idea that Catholic schools are full of middle class children. The average Catholic in the UK is working class, lower income and quite likely to be an immigrant. That's the case at my children's Catholic school. Also around 40% have special needs. Over half last years intake had two foreign non-native English speaking parents. Our Catholic schools are far more ethnically diverse than any of the non-faith schools in the area. It also admits non-Catholics most years though over 100 were turned down this year (70 or so places).

xylem8 - the Fair Admissions Campaign isn't trying to remove faith schools, but only to open up their admissions to everyone who wants to attend. Many brand new Church of England schools have no faith criteria in their admissions systems at all, and new faith academies aren't allowed to have more than 50:50 faith admissions. The campaign is saying that existing schools should move in the same direction.

shebird - it's true that people applying to faith schools need to be comfortable with the ethos of the school, but that's very different to having to 'prove' their faith credentials to get in.

Oh, and even given the special needs, low-income backgrounds and language handicaps the school has been rated outstanding for many years and achieves very high results far in excess of the national average.

Bayjay - are you saying my child shouldn't be able to attend their local Catholic school because some non-Catholic whiny middle-class parent wants their little Tarquin to go there? The schools are owned by the Catholic Church, they were built by the donations and hard work of local Catholics who gave of their hard-earned wages to set up schools for their children. You want a piece of that but don't want to pay for it? Form a community of like minded parents and build your own school.

shebird That is not going to happen though is it? The country does not have enough money. And the current faith criteria which obviously only kick in if a school is oversubscribed (and I know many Catholic Schools that are effectively inclusive because they are not oversubscribed who do an excellent job of serving their communities) result in schools that are far more socially selective than distance criteria would result in. Our local Catholic Primary School has 2% of children on Free School Meals whilst the Community Primary next door has 10%, similar disparities exist in terms of the representation of black and minority ethic pupils and, anecdotally, Eastern European pupils. At least with distance criteria the local schools serve their local community, and also enable parents and children who have small legs to walk to school, and to have friends in the local area. That social discrimination at our local Catholic School is also reflected in the number of 4*4s clogging the road around the school gate. I expect they have expensive houses too, helped by the fact they effectively have been provided with an exclusive private school at tax payer expense.

The faith criteria are in any case a blunt instrument, inconsistently applied. We do have one undersubscribed local Catholic School, mainly because the priest is far more exacting about imposing the faith criteria than those in surrounding Parishes, unless the family has proven social need, or come from a Catholic country. Laudable except that given the shortage of spaces non Catholics find themselves allocated to the school because it is the only one with spaces in the area. Even if a faith school is acceptable to the parents they then find that the children of Catholic parents are given priority over their siblings, and they will be at the mercy of the even greater school place shortages in coming years.

How can it be right to discriminate against a child not only because of their parents faith, but also their ability to have had them baptised at the right time, provide evidence of church going etc. etc. etc. and on the whim of a priest?

Ok, those who believe in the system that means faith schools can exclude LAC who do not meet the exact faith criteria can you justify this? Do you think its right?

LAC are at the back of the queue for every system that needs an effective advocate. How can it be right or fair or Christian?

LAC are first on the list at DS's Catholic school, followed by baptised Catholics, siblings etc.

Is that not standard then?

If the local faith school was in special measures would you be crying out for them change their admissions policy. Probably not. I suspect just because many faith schools have a good reputation then everyone wants a part of it. If faith schools have to admit more non faith than faith children then eventually the whole point of the school being a particular faith will be eroded.

Copthallresident I think the idea that all faith schools are middle class and clogged with 4X4s is a myth. It might be the case in London but this is an exception and not way in the majority of cases. The faith schools I am familiar with are very much working class and most certainly not 'exclusive private schools'. As mentioned byDoesBuggerAll church schools are part funded by the church to which we donate and you forget we are also taxpayers.