If mumsnet Mums cared as much about maths as they do about reading ...

[TeenAndTween]

...would there be much high levels of numeracy in this country?

There are so many threads on here about reading and reading levels, and yet so very few about maths, apart from the occasional one concerning times tables.

Why is this?

Do parents just not care about maths, think it is less important? Or is it because schools don't send colour coded maths to do at home so parents don't get competitive about it?

Why is it still socially acceptable for otherwise intelligent people to say they're not much good at maths when they would never dream about saying that about reading?

DS1 (Y1) enjoys being let loose on BBC Bitesize!

Is 'chunking' what we used to call 'short division'? According to Wikipedia, number bonds have been in use since the 60s.

I thnk there is confusion about what maths is. Maths is problem solving - we all do that all the time. It uses logical methods and is vital for encouraging logical thought. So you can't remember how to calculate the length of a hypotenuse - so what. What is more important is whether given a method and a problem you can put the two together.

I have heard teachers in ds's school say that they can't do maths because their brain doesn't work that way - personally I think they shouldn't be teaching. We do a lot of maths at home to make up for it!

I help my dc with maths at home, their school have started using mymaths.com which is a pile of junk imo, but there you are.

What makes me cross (as someone with a level maths and a degree partly in economics) is that when they are comfortable with the concept of matrix multiplication (for example) they are not then shown the computationally much faster and more accurate column method.

This seems to be effectively saying to children 'ah, but that way is hard and you cannot understand it, you must do this less efficient method' and that is fucking stupid.

All sorts of interesting points.

Do mathematicians get less respect than scientists? Depends who you are asking? But also depends on who is speaking. Part of the problem with mathematicians is that often what they are discussing is impenetrable - the math they work with day to day is far and away beyond 'mainstream' ability in student/ adult population.

But government funding in Higher Education is related to STEM - and very definitely includes mathematics. This is a bit beyond primary level - but there is a uk website about careers using mathematics (starts addressing 11 year olds and up: www.mathscareers.org.uk/.

Now in terms of being a Mum on Mumsnet and caring - trust me (and I think many hear will agree) I regularly try my best to explain the curriculum, give feedback and help at various common hurdles. Multiplication is a popular topic (at the moment) but we've had long discussions about how to help with carrying over numbers in addition/ subtraction, problems with adding/ subtracting big numbers and 'the column method'. People have also asked about telling times and game suggestions. There also was a great 'tricky problem' posted a while back - which involved closing doors in a certain way 1000 times and then working out which doors were open and why. Took me a while to work out with DD - but we really enjoyed ourselves.

Mumsnet also put me on to Woodland Junior School mathszone: resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/, as well as many other fab resources. It was also a joy to be pointed in the direct of NRICH Math from Mumsnet: nrich.maths.org/frontpage - fabulous programme and all sorts of brain teasing/ maths exploration work to play with.

Communication from schools could be better. Our schools official curriculum - as published on their website - for maths is TERM 1 - A1 - C1, Term 2 - A2 - C2 and Term 3 - A3 - C3. Trying to ask them about more work/ practice ideas/ workbook recommendations led to a stream of abuse (I presumed I must have asked in a rude way, but DH was so offended by the abuse he received when he attempted similar to try and help our DD1 - he was so offended that he refused to deal with 'that woman' for the rest of the school year.)

Now the point many raise here and which I do totally agree with is that without core maths skills (calculation skills, initial geometry understanding [things like shapes (2D/3D)/ area/ perimeter and regular problem solving work] - children will really struggle to fully engage with science and maths curriculum in senior school.

Is maths important? - yes. Should parents get more directly involved? Yes. But I suspect - poor communication from school, personal uncertainty/ insecurity of maths skills/ appropriate techniques on the part of parents and frankly unapproachable teaching professionals all corroborate to put maths on the back burner, which is a crying shame!

My sons' school seems to focus more on literacy in Infants, although obviously they are doing some maths - but in Juniors, maths is a big deal.

Badges for times tables and division tests, which you can lose on re-testing, MyMaths homework every week so parents can see what and how their children are doing if they want, maths week where they use maths to solve problems...

The Head in Juniors still teaches Y6 maths regularly and this really makes a difference I think. Obviously she can read and write as well, so literacy doesn't suffer!

Scone I was typing slowly so hadn't seen your comment - my DSs have been shown column multiplication after grid method. I don't know what's in the curriculum, but again it is probably to do with how comfortable the teacher is with the material.

Maths is important - stats is very important if you are trying to work out the best school for your child or any rubbish the government is going on about - you need to understandwhat numbers are beign compared with what and the context, otherwise these things are meaningless.

I would also say maths is incredibly important for personal finances. DH has a member of staff who bought a car and a house but totally omited to think about the ongoing running costs of them compared to their salary. He spends more on petrol a month than we do on all our bills combined - this lack of basic numerical thinking is one of the reasons so many people are in debt.

DH is annoying in that he can glance at a supermarket bill and immediately spot a mistake.
I have witnessed a scene in Starbucks where the cashier asked a woman to pay £400 for a coffee and a cake. She didn't seem to think this was an issue - the till otld her it was £400 and that is what she kept repeating to the customer (who didn't pa) but they had to get the manager in. Basic maths should have toldthe cashier tat £2 plus £2 is not £400!!!!!

Between YR andY5 I could count on the figures of one hand how may pieces of maths have come home for my two.

Until SATs revision HW was total literacy based, reading, spellings and written projects. Except for learning tables almost nothing maths based at all.

Very frustrating as DD1 is dyslexic and literacy HW was always a depressing struggle as are tables.

Conversely we had a lovely chatty fun time the TWICE a maths sheet came home. I'm sorry to shout, but that really is what we got two maths sheets alternating weeks with English sheets before the teacher gave up.

Either people didn't do them or she hated marking them I don't know.

Both Dss good at maths at school, but when I ask them 'what did you do in numeracy today' they'll say something like 'we didn't do numeracy today mum, we learned about quarters'. Or 'we measured stuff in the classroom with rulers and figured out which desk was the biggest and which desk was the smallest'. Kids don't see it as numeracy (yet). They are in y1 and y2 and I am always suprised how little emphasis is spent on maths homework and reviews during parents' evenings. We do a lot of maths at home, mostly games, board games such as Numbers Up, Pole Position, Deadly 60 board game, Nubbles, or play with cuisenair rods or Numicons.

My girls have had maths homework every week since Y1 - reception was devoted to phonics and reading and counting to 10....

In Y1 they brought home a list of 10 number "facts" to learn starting with maybe a few number bonds to 5 (4+1 =5, 4+?=5) and "+ means to add them up" they needed to be able to do simple reading before these were given out.They were meant to look at them daily and learn them just like the word lists.

They were also given maths weekly "homework" e.g. weighing things like a toothbrush and a litre of milk/ dividing a tube of smarties into 2 "fair" piles

In Y2 they progressed to number games and more homework.

Maths has always been structured with learning lists/sheets just like literacy at our school - I did not think it was different elsewhere.... learn something new every day....

On the radio:

Customer: Please could I exchange this ten pound note for five pound notes?

Cashier: Certainly, sir. How many would you like?

I can see that there is going to be further problems as regards jobs that require maths.
It has much helped mine that they can do maths, while others struggle.
They are able to do even aspects of jobs that others cannot do.

I do think that Maths is the 2nd most important subject at school.

We teach maths for 75 mins a day, we set homework every week which is always marked, we have targets every half term... I work in ks2 it's def the same down to y2 at school. Am surprised others get away without maths homework!! And once grid muktiplication done we do vertical expanded then vertical compact NOT based on the teacher's whim but on the progression through the 4 calculations sheets that we have. These are sent out to parents so they know what method their child is on and what next. We've done this for years am surprised it's not standard... Lots of our kids love maths and it's definitely cool to be in the top set...

We do the same amount of Numeracy lessons as we do Literacy lessons - in Y2; did same last year in Y1 too.

My dd is Yr 3, and in my experience her school hasn't let maths lag behind. They did workshops in numeracy and literacy at the beginning to explain teaching methods, and since Reception weekly homework is a maths sheet, as well as a reading book. And now they have weekly list of spellings and tables, and weekly tests on both.
I am more focussed on the maths side of things for my dd because she is good at it and likes it, and I am not and don't. So encouraging her is an effort for me whereas talking about books/language is second nature.

Is it only on Mumsnet that all parents seem to feel a need to make their children do extra work at home, so many talk about teaching their children at home. Also this seems to have become more prevalent in recent years.

My son is 16, currently doing his GCSEs, we always supported his school work, read with/to him when younger, were interested in what he was doing at school, made sure homework was done etc., but we never felt any need to try and teach him anything ahead of what he was learning at school. Of course we practised maths/science/reading as they came up in everyday life or helped him learn about things he was interested in, but I wouldn't have dreamt of making him do extra maths work. I don't think we were unusual amongst his friends' parents in our attitude. I only know of one of his friends who had a tutor for a while because he was falling behind a bit.

I can understand if a child is struggling working with them to catch up, I just don't understand why some people want to push their children to get ahead by making them learn things that they will have to do again in school. I had a parent say to me last year that of course all the children on the top table were doing extra work at home, in her mind they had to be in order to be there. That certainly wasn't the case in my son's year group.

Oh and despite not hothousing what would now seem to be a laissez-faire attitude on our part, he is expecting an excellent set of GCSE grades.

I love maths and I want my dc to grow up to love maths too.

HOWEVER, much as it doesn't float my boat as much - literacy is FAR, FAR more important in those first few years. I have a dc with a specific language impairment and trust me, without solid literacy skills, a child just can't do maths.

Maths is important in many many jobs, particularly those that are in demand in this country.

Hi Buskerdog:

Let me put a rhetorical question to you. When in the space of the entirety of KS1 your child has only had 15 homeworks sent home in maths (and I've documented that with OFSTED) and is physically unable to work out how to add numbers over 20 and subtract at all (this is March Y2) - please explain to me what you would do as a parent?

Sometimes doing more at home is the only solution if you personally want to ensure that your child can add, subtract, multiply (not just times tables, but to 2 and 3 digits) and divide (not just inverse times tables, but up to 3 digits divided by 2 digits).

I will say that had they been at a school like BabiesAreLikeBuses clearly teaches at - then obviously I would have left it to the school.

I don't think the 15 homeworks have anything to do with it PastSellByDate but obviously the quality of teaching and communication within school is poor

Poster who claimed "you don't use maths to communicate" - have a . What the hell do you think maths is for if not to meaningfully describe some of the most important and beautiful ideas? How do I deal with cancer/ why is a zebra striped/ how does an aeroplane fly / have I been cheated on that business deal/ why does the earth go around the sun / should I buy a precipice bond for my pension - its all maths.

I love doing maths with DC. I go totally off-piste - and make them navigate all their decisions through being able to demonstrate that they can anticipate and understand the underlying maths. The fallacy is thinking that it's a formal 'hovering over their shoulder while they do long division' type of thing. If we share a pack of biscuits, they have to tell me how many they get each; if we bake; I make them double the recipe on the fly - it's a game.

It's definitely a lot to do with the fact that schools don't send enough things home explaining the methods taught in school now.

I got moaned at by the teacher for teaching my DS1 long division and long multiplication when he was in Y2. He had asked me to show him how to do these things with 'bigger numbers'. Apparently they teach these things in a different way now.

(Though DS1 says that the school's method is 'clunky' - his word - and he still does it the way I taught him, even at 11!)

It's a moot point with DS1 now, though. He is working on lvl 7 Maths now, and he IS better than me at Maths.

His passion for Algebra knows no bounds...

I work with DS2 now.

I can understand why DS1 feels the current methods are a little 'clunky' tbh, the old way makes far more sense to me.

Even my DD with SN's finds the old methods far easier than current methods, and she only learnt to 'do' Maths at all once I taught her them.

Ann, with respect, I have been on a thread with you before. Can I just say that the post above is very strong?
And while you are here, how did your nanny hunt go?

AnnIonic I think part of the point is that a lot of people truly don't instinctively understand what maths is for. I hope you're less sneery with your DC when explaining new concepts than you are with other posters.

I don't decide priorities on basis of what is popularly discussed on MN. Can't comment on the rest of the world's sheep.

DH & I love to set the kids math problems. Teachers gush over DD's writing ability but I don't want her to be pigeonholed & tell her she'd probably like maths even better because it will be more of a challenge. That's how it worked for me, anyway.

I still think literacy has to precede maths; I helped out in an assessment session once (yr3). All I could do was read aloud the question to the children. Point is, they had to read in order to be able to do the maths, and those who couldn't read well were delayed and handicapped, waiting for an adult to read the question to them, and the adult couldn't stand there forever so every time child wanted to refer back to the question details they had to try to remember what adult said or call adult over again.

One of the best things our school did was a little 1 hour session last autumn on maths strategies in upper phase (yr4-y6). Sad part is that only about a dozen parents attended; we all found it very useful, though.