Rejected my sons place offer for September, what happens now?

[PoppyPia]

We were allocated a terrible primary school miles away earlier this month for reception, I have thought about it and there's no way I can send my son there, so I have rejected the offer. What happens now?

NYC has just as many problems, it is slightly simplified because there are no denominational schools to confuse things. But for private education what I've heard is that the stress is even worse than London.

The problem London and NYC share is: high population density and very little room for new schools.

Oh and from what I read on a thread about Brussels, the situation can seem similar there too.

Personally, I think it's the religion part of it that complicates things...at least it did for me as an atheist. And the lack of acknowledgment that families with 2 working parents are limited in their chauffering availability. Here in Los Angeles, we have similar stresses over getting your children into a good public (state) school. You are automatically entitled to a place at your local school. However, if that school isn't great, there are a variety of perfectly viable work arounds, so that all parents have options, not just ones who or rich or from the right religion who have "gifted" children. It's by no means a perfect system, but it seems to work much more smoothly and fairly (to all) than what I experienced in West London for my children and my friends' children. Population density-wise, I think Los Angeles is a good comparison to London. New York is a slightly different situation because of the higher density of the population and I understand that the schooling issues are currently more stressful and problematic than elsewhere.

ljny. It doesn't always work elsewhere. There aren't the same issues but there are still issues. Schools cannot expand indefinitely, nor can class sizes. If there aren't enough places in the catchment school to make an extra class but too many to put into the number of existing classes, those extra children don't get to go to their catchment school they fill in spaces in undersubscribed ones. The process for choosing which children they are can be as mind boggling as the admissions system in England.

London"s population density is about twice that of NY. And there are several other large cities with hire densities.

If you look at those cities with greater densities, they are in places where not all children receive schooling or huge class sizes are the norm. Neither are models to emulate.

Sorry -mangled and incomplete sentence "There are several other large UK cities with densities higher than NY"

OP, any news?

Sofia, how do these work arounds work in LA?
Just curious.

Slightly random article, but this article suggests that the population density of London is much higher than LA. So maybe not a fair comparison?

Twice that of New York? Wow. I wonder what it is like if you just compare Manhatten?

Probably much the same interval, if you took just parts of London's inner city.

I suppose what I'm thinking is that being in Manhatten could be just as bad/worse than inner London for school places, but the population density pulled down by Staten Island, etc. It's probably not a great comfort to a Manhatten mother if there are places in Staten Island and the Bronx that could take their child.

BranchingOut here are some of the options:

1. Charter Schools. These are public schools which accept children purely by lottery unless you are a "founding parent" (helped do all the work to form the school) and not by catchment area. In my neighborhood there are multiple good Charter Schools at all grade levels.
2. Magnet Schools. These are public schools (usually within a regular catchment area campus) that admit children partially based on lottery and partially based on skills (some are gifted, some are art based, some are math based etc.). These schools have a racial background admittance component as they were originally introduced in the 70's as a way to integrate the school system.
3. "Permit" into a catchment school that isn't in your catchment area.

i) At the elementary school level this can be done based on childcare needs (ie does the school offer before and after school childcare that your local catchment school doesn't). ii) At all ages this can be done based on your child's grades/test performance/teacher recommendations.

1. Move into the school's catchment area as everyone is absolutely entitled to a place at the school if they live within the catchment area.
2. Work in the district - some school districts will give places in the district to the children of parents who work in the district.

I personally know people from all walks of life (rich, poor, illegal, legal, white, black, hispanic, smart, not so smart, educated, illiterate, etc.) who have gotten their child into a school of their choice by using one of these methods. My experience is that when parents are given the choice to choose what's best for their child, they don't all pick the same thing. Of course, some schools are over subscribed, but I have yet to meet a parent who didn't find a happy alternative if their child didn't get into their first choice of school.

In addition, most of the private schools offer very generous scholarships, so private education isn't out of reach for the poor and middle class.

I'd be curious to know what is being considered "London" and what is being considered "Los Angeles" and what is being considered "New York" when calculating those density figures. As you mentioned, Manhattan is much denser than Staten Island and I'm guessing that the schooling issues are in Manhattan and NOT in Staten Island.

Hope it all works out for you OP. The London situation is crazy, I know my Uncle, who lives in Herne Hill, had a nightmare trying to get his son into a local 'decent' school, involving joining the local church (which I don't really agree with but can see why people feel the need do it). If we'd stayed in England we had a primary school right behind our house and my daughter went to the preschool attached to it, but we were told due to a baby boom that there was a chance we still wouldn't get in, and they would have to have an extra large intake of 32 plus due to demand. We were in Gloucester, not London.
I find it mad, as here in New Zealand we have catchments (known as 'zones') for each school, which are all quite small - if you live in zone then you are guaranteed a place (even if you just turn up on the day you want to start - which is crazy but apparently has happened!). There are some schools that have no zones too, so you can apply from anywhere. If you like a particular school but are not in zone then you can apply to go into a ballot for out of zone places. Schools only hold a ballot if they think there will be spaces and assess this 4 times a year, so there could be 4 ballots in a year, or possibly none. We applied out of zone to a school with a fantastic arts programme and got a space this way. Classes are opened throughout the year (my dd's new class had only 7 pupils in it to start with) and the coordinator for the school has to assess how many pupils they think will start over the year.
In NZ children start on or just after their 5th birthday so there are staggered entries throughout the year (they don't have to start until they are 6). What I found interesting is the class sizes here compared to the UK, my dd has just started and there are only 18 in her class and the principal found it necessary to apologise that there were more than 15 - he has attached another qualified teacher to the class to help until she is due to open the next classroom at the end of the month for new pupils!!!
We don't have the same population density problems here obviously, but we do have problems here with population movement etc due to the earthquakes we had here in Christchurch. I can see it could be quite a chaotic system, but it does seem to work (interestingly it is the high school zones that seem to push the house prices up, not the primary school ones).

Sorry Tiggy- Yes, I do agree. That was kind of my point. That population density was a guide, but that it didn't really tell you whether there were big pockets of people for whom finding a school was just as much of a nightmare as for many Londoners.

Thanks, Sofia.

So, lots of different types of schools - plus the 'permit' system making some allowance made for childcare, need for a school near a parent's place of work etc.

Does this lead to transport nightmares at school run time?

What is such a shame is that there are so many schools around that are sub-standard that parents feel they have to go out of catchment which results in these issues frequently.

If everyone went to catchment schools then presumably the whole process would be easier.

Private schools are often full also so it just seems there are not enough places to go round, there are 6 on the waiting list for DS1s class at the moment.

Certainly in our LA area they are putting in portacabin classrooms in state schools with lots of land available (ie taking up the sports fields etc) to house the extra children. The schools are full to bursting and there are children every year with no places right up to the last minute.

It's probably not a great comfort to a Manhatten mother if there are places in Staten Island and the Bronx that could take their child.

The Manhattan child still gets a place at their local Manhattan school.

Maybe the local school is crap. But the parents already know that. They can move, they can apply to a magnet, charter, specialized program, etc.

What won't happen is, their child won't suddenly be sent to a random crap school they'd never heard of, hours away, like happened to the Op.

(Obviously crap schools shouldn't exist, but that's another issue.)

Yes, sorry, I wasn't really making a point about school admissions processes in different areas, I was just saying that population density didn't tell you everything about how fraught local school admissions might be.

Er ... Is no one else going to question OP for her blatant xenophobia (and latent racism) when she said my son is likely to be one of few British children in the year?!! I hope your ds does go to that school, OP, as he might give you a lesson in tolerance. Children are children. He won't care whether they're British or Martian just as long as they play with him. I taught in a school with over 90% non-British kids. Many spoke little or no English. Guess what? They played happily because play is an international language. I had (a little) sympathy for the OP although I thought she was a few sandwiches short of a picnic until that comment.