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Why don't we use 'magic e' any more?

114 replies

Pozzled · 30/04/2013 19:23

And is it a problem if my child is taught in that way? I'm not very impressed (especially when I've already taught her 'split digraph') but want to know if it really matters.

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StephaniePowers · 01/05/2013 18:39

I'm quite shocked at some of the guff coming from teachers.

/ai/ for a start is the sound in I (approximately)

/ei/ is (again, approximately) the diphthong in later

daftdame · 01/05/2013 18:44

StephaniePowers - your /ai/ reminded me of my Gran's telephone voice Grin. (I could've got the wrong end of the stick but it was my 1st thought).

LindyHemming · 01/05/2013 19:16

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LindyHemming · 01/05/2013 19:17

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mrz · 01/05/2013 19:29

So you would pronouce rain and Spain and explain as rien and Spien and explien?

daftdame · 01/05/2013 19:42

mrz- Granny's telephone voice again!Grin I do miss her...

mrz · 01/05/2013 19:59

So your granny would spell rain as rien or rine? oh dear Shock

daftdame · 01/05/2013 20:06

Not spell, say! Think Queen's voice & TV in the 1950's (a digression I know, sorry). Just thinking allowed. Granny also had that wonderful copperplate type writing, not sure I could have entangled the exact spelling of everything.

daftdame · 01/05/2013 20:06

aloud even...I told you about my spelling.

mrz · 01/05/2013 20:15

Luckily phonics isn't influenced by your granny's posh phone voice or any accent for that matter

daftdame · 01/05/2013 20:19

I forgot where I read it but I did read something about regional spelling mistakes (especially in first writings) that were difficult to decipher unless you could reference the regional accent. What would that be due to mrz?

mrz · 01/05/2013 20:21

That would be due to poor teaching daftdame

LindyHemming · 01/05/2013 20:26

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mrz · 01/05/2013 20:40

Except phonics had been around for many centuries before RP and it isn't accent dependent

LindyHemming · 01/05/2013 20:49

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mrz · 01/05/2013 20:54

You should teach the sound/spelling in the child's accent not in RP

teacherwith2kids · 01/05/2013 21:00

Yes, but sometimes the 'grouping' of graphemes (as in, which are alternate encodings for the same sound) are different for different accents. Some which sound the same in RP are different in some local pronounciations, and vice versa. It doesn't affect the initial 'grapheme / phoneme' correspondance, but it can affect which are regarded as alternate spellings and which as different sounds. (Ie a Scottish teacher would not group wh and w together as alternate spellings for the same sound)

LindyHemming · 01/05/2013 21:14

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maizieD · 01/05/2013 21:21

It's not surprising that most phonics programmes tend to reflect what might be considered to be 'RP' as most of the programme developers are English, and Southern English, to boot. However, for a teacher who understands the main principle behind them, i.e that you are teaching the 'sounds' and the way they are represented by a letter or letters, then it is no problem to teach to the accent, as I'm sure that Euphemia knows.

Though I can see that it is a bit annoying when some correlations are missing altogether.

maizieD · 01/05/2013 21:24

They already think it's pretty funny when I say "tube" correctly, rather than just "choob". smile

Agreed!

But at what stage do you 'give in' and start teaching that /f/ can be spelled with a 'th' (as in 'fing', 'fought', 'fink' etc.) Grin

LindyHemming · 01/05/2013 21:35

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mrz · 02/05/2013 07:11

As the number of phonemes varies across the UK most schemes seem to have opted for 44 sounds (Jolly Phonics only has 42) but as in the case of loch it's relatively easy to teach the sound as same spelling alternative sound and to teach and (there is a difference even in my NE accent although not so pronounced) as representing different sounds to fit regional variations.

Mashabell · 02/05/2013 19:28

As a foreigner learning English in the 1960s, I was taught the 'open' and 'closed' vowel system, rather than 'magic e', meaning that when a vowel and a single consonant are followed by another vowel, the first vowel is long (sole, solo, hale, halo, tube, tubular). Two consonants, by contrast, keep the vowel short (hollow, hallowed, tubby).

Many hundreds of words conform to this system. Unfortunately quite a substantial number don't. Lots have a redundant -e (have, gone, are, imagine - cf save, bone, care, define). Many more don't have a doubled consonant after a short vowel (poppy - copy, ballad - salad, merry - very). So the system is not really all that systematic, thanks mainly to Sam Johnson who did not like to make words from Latin roots conform to English spelling rules.

It started well originally, but early printers (16th C) were paid by the line and often added extra letters (fisshe, shoppe). Most were dropped again in the 17th C, but those that escaped that cull have remained. And Johnson than made matter worse.

It would be very easy to make this area more orderly, and learning to read and write much easier than it is, but that does not seem to interest many people, and so the poor kids have to put up with lots of rote-learning word by word. Masha Bell

Mashabell · 02/05/2013 19:32

Sorry
Johnson then made matters worse (not than). - I've no idea how that crept in. Except that a few centuries ago they used to be interchangeable, and I've been reading some old texts again.

scaevola · 02/05/2013 19:42

ITA wasn't phonetic - it was phonemic

The differences between accents are phonetic (ie you make different sounds in different accents), but the underlying phonemes remain the same (the 'units' of sound continue to make meaningful differences between wor irrespective of accent).

Phonics refers to the code between the written language and the phonemes of spoken language.

Mastering that code is the way to escape word-by-word rote learning.