Badly behaved children (R to Y6) - do they every change?

[grants1000]

DS1 is in Y6 and the same 2 boys who have always had issues with behavior in reception are still the same in Y6! Do and can badly behaved children ever change? Their behavior is now more bullying and physical and the school always clamp down on it and I can't fault the school. They were pains in the arse in Reception, biting, hitting, dusruptive and are now pains in the arse in Y6, bullying, agressive behavior, rude etc

What are your experiences?
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I have certainly known children as you describe, but I have also seen young children improve where their behaviour has been down to undiagnosed SEN, bullying, immaturity or specific disruptive issues at home that are resolved.

Incidentally it works the other way too - you'd be surprised how many children who were angels at primary go off the rails a bit as they progress through secondary.

Impossible to say without knowing the children and their backgrounds. How do you know the school are faultless? Maybe they aren't doing enough?

School have excluded, got parents in, children have missed play & activities, not been allowed on school trips and events, had extra work, been made to write letters of apology and say them face to face etc, always spoken with parents of children on the end of their crap behavior, on report etc etc etc - what more can they do?

I don't by this home background bullshit, I know the parents and there is undiagnosed nothing, it would have been picked up by now by the SENCO, doctor or parents. My DS is severley dyslexic and it does not make him act like an arsehole from R to Y6, neither does the aspergers boy or austistic specturm girl in their class. And why does imaturity make you behave badly?

Maybe it's attachment issues or an attachment disorder.

My brother has one and I don't. We grew up with the same parents.

Only 65% of the UK population are securely attached according to some research.

I don't think that home background is necessarily bullshit.

Some children learn that behaving badly gets them sent home/adult attention. Others witness a parent or older sibling behaving like that (physically abusive) with no apparent consequences. There are parents who don't believe in respecting "authority figures" like teachers, social services and police or don't believe in Special Needs so refuse assessments and so on that could lead to diagnosis and help.

If all mum does when Charlotte bullies and steals is sigh and say oh, Charlotte I wish... then she'll only have herself to blame when Charlotte's face gets posted on Crimewatch.

Sorry but all the steps you list are punishment for the actions - not trying to deal with underlying causes. Do these boys misbehave together? Have they ever been separated? It really can be that simple, I know of two boys who were very subtly a nightmare through Juniors, they went to separate seniors and one at least totally changed his behaviour.

SENCOs do not always pick up SEN/SN, often these aren't picked up until secondary (or beyond). Some SENCOs are very very good at seeming wonderfully professional, but actually are a bit pants.

Homelife - well just go to the Relationship board, most domestic violence is carried out by people who to others seem like: wonderful fathers, the pillar of the community etc.

I reckon a fair bit of domestic violence is also carried out by people who look and act like a total waste of space all the time and they don't try to hide it. Why they have partners at all is beyond me.

I don't by this home background bullshit

Well that's your opinion, but it often can play a part.

I know the parents and there is undiagnosed nothing

Unless you have, as a paediatrician/neurologist assessed both children, then you can't say that for sure.

It would have been picked up by now by the SENCO, doctor or parents

Not necessarily, problems are often only picked up later on in a childs school career.

To answer your question, yes sometimes they can change, if the issues are identified and causes dealt with rather than just punishing the actions.

I definitely think home background (which needn't be traumatic or awful, especially not overtly so) is an important factor, if not the most important factor. If there are no undiagnosed other issues at play.

I think it depends on the cause. In many cases it is just overindulgent parents, or parents who 'wash their hands' of issues in school. If there are no consequences at home for bad behaviour (just a lot of talk) then I don't think it changes.
Some parents do everything possible and the kid is still a nightmare.
Some kids are nightmares and grow up to be very nice adults. I have a cousin like this - terrible...truly terrible behaviour at school - permanently excluded - nice as pie as an adult. Even he can't explain his behaviour as a kid.

Have been a dinner lady now for donkey's years - and yes, sometimes kids do change, sometimes the little terror in reception can be the nicest possible kid in Y1 or 2 - they just needed a little bit of adjustment time... some kids do take a bit of settling in.....

what we do find is that if they are holy terrors in Y2 they tend to still be that way in Y6

we find as lunchtime staff that you can see how the new intake will be each year by the levels of respect shown to the staff - some years have 2 or 3 who need leading in the right direction, but are overall good sports, some years the teachers are pulling their hair out in week 2!

It is a worry that we seem to be disciplining the same 5 or 6 kids (out of 400) every single day - but having to deal with general aggressive behaviour and insolence from just those few makes you think how well most of the kids are doing and how lucky we are with our own kids. I wish there was more we could do to help them, but some are so hardnosed about things aged 7 or 8 that the wall is put up the moment you speak to them, and all you can do is give them a job to keep them out of trouble, or isolate them from the playground - which is sad.

Oh and I know a boy who joined my DCs school having been expelled twice. Whilst he might not be angelic now, he is much better, and has lost that "totally closed off, suspicious of Adults" look.

I know one boy who changed from unholy terror in Yr3 to very nice, well behaved boy by Yr6 - he's still lovely now, I have no idea what happened but I do know that at school my DD1 was asked to peer mentor and buddy him, and she saw him change.

But he's the only one, the other little so and sos haven't changed at all.

Goodness, thats a big leap learnandsay
people who look like a waste of space and dv.
Fwiw at my dd pre-school myself and a few other mums were throughly ashamed at batting at our eye-lids at the dashing Consultant Surgeon, who was in fact beating ten shades if shite out of his wife at every opportunity.
Dv affects all classes and races, makes no distinction.

Op sorry for going off-topic.

Of course they can.

Many children go from PRUs into mainstream schools and remain there happily until the end of their education.

Not all disruptive/aggressive behaviour is caused by a chaotic home life- but that is not to say that a chaotic home life does not affect behaviour. It would be absurd to suggest that it doesn't.

Children can change over any time. When I was at school there was a lad who was a complete pain, got low quality GCSEs (for a grammar school-mostly Bs and Cs), think he was close to permanent exclusion in the year 7. In year 12 he completely changed knuckled down and was one of the best behaved responible pupils-and got a row of good As at A-level. His homelife was certainly not chaotic. Boring more like.

Also at my primary there was one "holy terror" in my form from reception. In year 5 they discovered he was hyperactive off azo dyes. Then he was fine after that-with occasional blips when someone gave him a sweet.

And in dd1's year, there were children who were not good in year1 (when I used to help) and were responsible lovely children by year 6. and the other way round

Yes the same kids who were badly behaved at nursery are the same in year 6. I really think they should intervene earlier.

Well, Teeside mayor Ray Mallon has been very vocal about tacking bad parenting before the children are even born! www.thefreelibrary.com/We%27ll+crack+crime+in+the+womb.-a0123075934

Home background can have a lot to do with it in my experience.

There's a boy in my DS's class who has been disruptive throughout his time at the school and it seems to stem from the fact that he is never disciplined at home (his mum told me as such).

Now it's always been low level disruption in the class, nothing big enough to get excluded but it's getting annoying for the other children. Not only are they not able to get on with their own work, they are sometimes being punished as a class for the acts of a single child.

But it's still continuing and no matter how hard the school try, they are not being backed up by his parents so things never get any better

Anything's possible grants1000 but agree it's hard sharing a class with such children. The mothers often think their own disruptive kids are being led astray by others . I don't have any ready answers apart from this link