What would you think if this was happening in your y3 child's class?

[RunnersWorld]

And what, if anything, would you do?

One of the children is very disruptive, including bouts of physical and verbal violence, e.g.:

-Throwing chairs
-Swearing at the class and teacher
-Tearing up his own and others' work
-Pacing around the class when they are supposed to be working/listening
-Walking out of class meaning the teacher has to leave to bring him back
-There have also been two complaints from children/parents about him touching girls inappropriately (now has 121 at lunchtimes, so is constantly watched)

At least one from this list happens daily, once it was so extreme that the teacher had to remove the rest of the class from the room while two TA's tried to calm him. School was unable to contact anyone to collect him so he spent the rest of the day in the Head's office, as the TA basically refused to work with him. He's big for his age, strong and scary when he loses control.

My DS2 is in this class. I know all the detail because of my job, most parents of course will only have patchy stories relayed by their DC, but they all know there is a problem. To avoid drip feeding, I will also say I know that he is a very damaged child as a result of sexual abuse and currently living with a foster family. Other parents know nothing of this of course.

I am interested in an opinion from the POV of the parents who know nothing of his background, please.

[mrz]

hazeyjane it isn't details about a child in my class ...

[BluelightsAndSirens]

Add message | Report | Message poster Floggingmolly Sun 10-Feb-13 18:42:47
if I read the op and wondered if she was talking about my child or a child in my care, a quick search could give me the answer

A quick search of op's other threads put togeather with this one would make it very easy for someone to recognise the child and the op, she explains how far away from the school she lives, talks about her DC and gives more information about the child in this op.

All recognisable and easy to put togeather if you think or realise she could well be a TA at the school your DC attends.

I've recognised a mum from our school through one of her threads and thinking "that happened in our class" quick search through her other posts and threads and I recognised her - pm'd to let her know and both name changed.

fortunately she was posting about spoilt children atvparties, not disclosing confidential background information on a child from the school.

[hazeyjane]

ok, sorry, it was just that you said my class. I guess this is the problem with talking about specific children, but obviously you are talking about a hypothetical child in a hypothetical class.

[mrz]

I do have a child in my class who requires full time support but the other information does not relate to one single specific child and were examples of the type of SEN/SN found in many schools who require full time support which could not be diverted to support other children in class.

[Oblomov]

Have reported. Think this thread should be deleted.

[lougle]

Oblomov, I asked for that yesterday, but MNHQ said no

The truth is, there will never be enough money, but our children deserve to be educated just as any other.

Education does not mean:

-babysitting
-sat in a corridor while the class continues with work
-being excluded from Qualified Teacher time because a TA is allocated.

This thread could have been so different.

I am so glad my DD is in a special school, where children like her are cherished, valued and stretched to their highest potential. In a MS school they would spend all their time trying to 'contain' her. In her special school she learns and expectations of her are high.

She's in Year 2 and can read 21 words. She is trying with phonics, but so far that's being restricted because she uses whole word recognition, but they are working on it.

She can't write because her fine motor skills are poor, but they are working on it and she is starting to use an ipad to show her literacy skills.

She can't eat her lunch fast, but they're working on it, and they send her to the dinner hall early so that she can finish her dinner with her friends without rushing and still get a play time.

She can't dress well, but they're working on it, and she gets support to do her best.

In her school she is normal and valued and celebrated. She isn't the 'problem child' that she would be in MS.

Funding is always going to be an issue. The parents don't need to be concerned with that though - the law says a child's educational needs must be met. If the school needs more funds to do that, they must speak with the LA. Even if the answer is 'tough luck'.

[hels71]

A friend is going through a similar (not quite the same details) situation at her school. While she, along with many of the other parents, has every sympathy for the child in question they aslo would like their children to be able to feel safe in school. They would like their children to be able to go to school without being spat at, hit, kicked, pushed, screamed at, touched very inappropriately etc.....As indeed all children should be able to.

They have talked to the school whose reply is that there is no more funding to provide any more support for the child in question and, clearly, the child in question has a right to be educated too.

My friend and several others have made the choice to remove their children so they too can access their right to be educated in safety.

If a child has such complex needs that they are compromising the safety/ well being/education of themselves and/or the others in the class then maybe a mainstream school is not the best option for anyone?

[inappropriatelyemployed]

This is more a question of the way the school chooses to apply its resources and how combatant it is about obtaining the right help.

If your friend's children is at a school which doesn't access the resources and apply the expertise to support this child and allow inclusion, then they had best move their children.

Yes, in some cases mainstream is not appropriate but this should be based solely on an assessment of the child's needs and not the school's willingness/capability to help.

My son has been to different schools and the reality is some prize inclusion as a positive feature, others barely pay it lip service and would rather spend SEN money on a pond for their prospectus (not a joke- it happened).

Until SEN funding is increased to appropriate levels, until it is ring fenced and until staff have proper training and support, these problems will continue.

That is a political problem unlikely to win votes amongst a demographic obsessed by spelling tests and KS levels.

[wheresthebeach]

Most teachers don't have training in handling special needs kids; that's what special needs teachers are for. I think we expect too much of mainstream schools and the teachers.

Everyone will feel for this child; more help, expert help is clearly needed. At the moment nobody is getting what they need and if my child was in this class I'd be very worried about educational disruption as well as safety.

This is a national forum; I really don't think the child could be identified by info given.

[lougle]

"Most teachers don't have training in handling special needs kids; that's what special needs teachers are for. I think we expect too much of mainstream schools and the teachers."

Yet, the SEN Code of Practice clearly states:

"1:35 There is a clear expectation within the Education Act 1996 that pupils with statements of special educational needs will be included in mainstream schools. A parents? wish to have their child with a statement educated in the mainstream should only be refused in the small minority of cases where the child?s inclusion would be incompatible with the efficient education of other children."

"Unless a parent indicates that they do not want their child educated in a
mainstream school (whether by expressing a preference or making a
representation for a particular school or otherwise) an LEA must ensure that a
child is educated in a mainstream school unless that is incompatible with the
efficient education of other children. See Section 316, Education Act 1996"

So that Act, which has been in force for 17 years gives the right for parents to have a Mainstream setting for their child, unless it is incompatible with the efficient education of other children.

Note, it says the small minority of cases. Of course, that is the small minority of cases within the 2% of children with a Statement - so tiny.

Don't get me wrong, I am a big advocate of Special Schools - my DD1 goes to one, and I am Governor there. But, these children and their parents have a right to go to MS school and the schools, ultimately the LA, have a duty to ensure that the quality of education is suitable for them and their peers, equally.

[Fairenuff]

All the legislation in the world won't change the fact that some teachers and support staff still do not get proper training and support. They should, of course, but in reality this is not always the case.

Schools that value inclusion will be those that have proper procedures in place and follow them. The staff will be confident and well trained. The management team will be supportive and pro-active. The children will continue to be educated in a safe environment whilst the disruption is dealt with in a calm and professional manner.

If that is not happening in your school, they are failing all the children and the staff who work with them. It should probably be brought to the attention of governors.

[lougle]

"All the legislation in the world won't change the fact that some teachers and support staff still do not get proper training and support. They should, of course, but in reality this is not always the case."

No, but what has to happen, is schools and more importantly Local Authorities to understand that parents aren't asking a favour, parents don't want their children to be accommodated or tolerated, they want them to be educated as equal and valued peers.

The law says that this must happen. It isn't a case of 'in reality'. If it is, change the reality

[Fairenuff]

Changing the reality is down to the individual head teachers. And if parents are not happy with how situations are dealt with in school, they need to bring it up with governors. That's the only way to force change.

As it stands, the law says it must happen - or what? How is it measured, how is it enforced, how is it policed? Schools are geared up for Ofsted inspections but they don't reflect day to day life in the school.

It's easy to say 'change the reality' but how do you suggest that is done?

Fwiw I agree with you, lougle but that doesn't mean that change will happen.

[cassgate]

We had a similar situation at my dcs school. The child in question had very complex needs and was violent at times to children and staff, would spit, swear, throw things around the class, up end tables and chairs etc.At least once a week the class was evacuated for safety reasons. His parents were very open and honest about his problems and both them and the school were doing their best to get him accessed and the appropriate provison put in place for him. His parents wanted him to go to a special school but the red tape they had to jump through to get him accepted was unbelievable. In the meantime, they had no choice but to leave him in a mainstream school until things had been sorted. It took 2 years. I have seen his mum since and he is now doing very well as he has the support he needs. I feel very sorry for these kids as its all well and good having an inclusion policy but at what cost.

[lougle]

"It's easy to say 'change the reality' but how do you suggest that is done?"

For a start, by society not accepting that the law won't be followed in this situation, because it's 'just too hard' or 'just not possible'

[hels71]

"Don't snipe and fret when the reality is your kid is likely to be streets ahead of most children with disabilities and their outcomes are hugely better statistically."

Hmm, but frankly if that child is touching my child in places where she should not be being touched and is physically hurting her on a regular basis (which is what is happening in my friends school) then I think I would be allowed to "snipe" and "fret"...regardless of whether or not my child is streets ahead or not....

[socharlottet]

I don't think there is any breach of confidentiality.Every school in the country will have at least one kid like this and she's probably changed . or
details anyway

[Fairenuff]

Safety is becoming an issue in primary schools, more so than ever before. I have been assaulted by a child in the course of my work. That goes with my job and to some extent is to be expected, although not condoned. However, children have also been assaulted and that is not acceptable.

[hazeyjane]

I would just hope that a professional involved in ds's care did not write posts on the internet, using his issues and our lives to discuss some sort of moral or political dilemma.

[Chandon]

NT children assault eachother all the time?!

Not my Y3 class! Thankfully....most of them have figured out about boundaries by then, they may be cheeky at time or a bit wild, but " assaulting eachother all the time"?! Where do you live?

[Wheresmycaffeinedrip]

nt children assult eachother all the time ?

Yes and many get expelled for much less than this child has done. I think that shows just how much that school is trying to help this poor boy and that they are trying their hardest to fulfil their duties as teachers and to inclusion laws.

They may be failing but they sound like they r trying.