Do some schools hold some dc's back so others catch up?

[Whitecup]

Evening

My reception age dd is reading at red level. She wasn't a great reader when she started school. However she's really clicked with it, got the bug and went from red to pink in a month (oct). She's now a cracking little reader and I'm thinking she's probably ready to go yellow (she reads level 3/4 ORT books at home). So today I went in to school to change her books (she's read 4 red books this week changed by school) and have a nosey at a yellow book to see what they involved so I could put my case forward to the CT. I was shocked to see only red and pink books available. I noticed in her reading diary that she's not read a book with the CT or a TA, but to volunteer mums, this calendar year which also disappoints me as surely the TA/CT need to hear a child read to establish the level.

Do some schools play the catch up game to get all children to a certain level? Is there any benefit to this? Thanks

It's illuminating that you explained how rigorous your system is. Because simply having labels for children doesn't mean that the right children, or any children, are within each category. It would seem from the postings of unhappy parents in this thread that not all systems are as good as yours.

Part of the current Ofsted inspection process is to listen to readers from each level in each class (chosen by the inspector not the school) ...now can you imagine that an inspector isn't going to notice every child has the same book band when selecting the children or failing to notice the difference in reading ability?

Having the same book band is one way of failing to differentiate, clearly. But, regardless of the method of failing to do so, Ofstead routinely complain that the most able are not being challenged.

Which just goes to prove that schools would not get away with a situation such as described by the OP

Schools couldn't possibly get away with it-however I fail to understand why they would want to.

Precisely they have nothing to gain and lots to lose.

I think it's one of those widespread myths- possibly based on some child at some stage not progressing as fast as his mother thought he should "oh, he would be miles ahead, but the school like them all to go at the same speed" that sort of myth is incredibly "sticky"- surviving hard evidence tothe contrary, the knowledge that a school would get a crap OFStED and the teacher be classed as unsatisfactory if it happened.....

Presumably if the impression that this is happening is widespread then it comes from the experience of more than one mother. But, no matter how annoyed a teacher may be with a mother she shouldn't say something silly like "we need all the children to move up together."

I don't know how teachers can get disgruntled reading scheme mothers more on side. But I think avoiding the push-me-pull you surrounding comprehension is a good start. If the mum is utterly convinced the child should move up and the teacher has doubts about his ability to answer questions then some compromise should be reached. I'm sure the teacher just flatly refusing to move the child is a recipe for disgruntled mums to start typing "the lying bastards just want all the kids on the same level books."

simpson said something about parents being desperate to get their children moved up and writing that the child found a book easy when in fact they were struggling to read it. If that's true in any particular case then it should be simple enough to demonstrate to the parent by having the parent watch the child read the book to the teacher. I'm sure failure to answer a comprehension question could be demonstrated in the same way.

"Presumably if the impression that this is happening is widespread then it comes from the experience of more than one mother. But, no matter how annoyed a teacher may be with a mother she shouldn't say something silly like "we need all the children to move up together." "

And if a teacher did say that, then they should be immediately reported to the head and the governors. Because apart from anything else, that attitude will get the school a crap OfSTED

Someone in a recent thread said she had been told that, yes.

I'm really sorry, but I just don't believe it. The is no way a teacher in a state school would say that. Even a crap teacher would know not to say something like that publicly.

Here she is:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/a1672285-Tell-me-Im-being-a-wally

It's a good excuse for some mothers ..

The thing is 2 different teachers (yr1 and yr2) both said they were concerned that DS would run out of school books by the end of the year.

Now he is a very good reader but not exceptionally so.

I am under no illusions that this means his teacher has got him on the wrong NC level as he would read loads of other stuff in the classroom.

But just that they didn't then have an idea of the harder books he was able to tackle.

It's just easier to say that to pushy concerned mothers, than try to tell them that their precious little bunny isn't ready to move up yet

DD1 was on the old ORT Level 5 towards the end of reception but as 6+ were in the Y1 and up classrooms only then, she stayed on L5 for a bit longer than she would have done otherwise. But it didn't bother me, she could try other things at home then anyway. When she got to Y1 and had whizzed through the rest of ORT she was allowed to go to the library for her main reading book and choose from a banded selection. I think they are quite flexible like that, there is one girl this year who was on L5/6 when she started and she has progressed through a few levels.

But if he reads and understands car maintenance manuals at home and is bad at reading pink books at school there's obviously a problem. The difficulty for the parent is she and her husband can't set up a garage in the classroom. But the teacher can demonstrate her lack of success with the pink book. Maybe in the end they should decide to have Precious Little Jonny reading car manuals instead of pink books because he's actually good at reading them.

-I certainly haven't experienced this, and I have two complete pains very able readers. The school has always bent over backwards to accommodate them. DD2 is in Yr5 now, was put back on scheme books (diamond band) because they wanted proof of where she was (she was not impressed) but that didn't last long. I told her to read through them, some of them were OK stories and quite enjoyable, and we just kept her reading at home. She was assessed a 5c at the end of Yr4.

Much the same for DD1, we did a mix of sending books in with her and teachers finding her books from the local middle school -very good provision.

The only gripe I have is that the school gave her Inkheart and then neglected to get the other two books in the trilogy, so I've had to make some serious library reservations...

Oh, and both my DDs still use the phonics they have learned to deal with words they have not yet come across. You do need the phonic knowledge, alongside monster vocab it really helps them deal with new and unfamiliar words.

LandS - if a child is fab at reading car manuals (your example) then they may not be fab at comprehension in a story setting iyswim and prefer non fiction books which would keep that child back.

I am bracing myself to ask for a chat with DD's teacher tomorrow about her literacy.

That's right. But then we can't have employers coming on telly complaining that children can't read well enough to get a job. Because I would say but Little Jonny was reading How to Fix Your Peugeot 306 when he was four. But his teacher took it away.

lands, you seem to have some kind of fixed idea that teachers can actually remove skills and knowledge from children's heads. Why?

No, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that some children will come to school with certain skills and abilities already. And to judge those as being outside the norm, disregard them and make the child start again, with picture books, if you like, is not to advance the child but is rather to regress the child.

If a child actually hasn't reqd story books, though,they might need to be taken back to the beginning for that particular skill. Thinking about it, the year 7 boy I talked about who is a fantastic reader, but has no idea about narrative arc, or how story telling works might have started out like that. Maybe if he'd been given the wordless books when he was 5 he wouldn't have the difficulty he has now.

Can't understand the incredibly anti feeling towards wordless books, by the way. I remember having huge fun with them with mine!